TCLA General Discussion Thread #2 (2021)

[LawGrad2019]

Hi everyone! Long time lurker first time posting. I have been offered a TC at my dream firm. I also have a vac scheme coming up at another firm. I don't have the details of how long I have to accept my TC offer, but I'm pretty sure it's before my other vac scheme takes place. Can I still complete the other vac scheme having accepted my offer? (I haven't found anything in my offer letter that suggests otherwise - I also would really like the exposure of the other firm) Is it common to delay signing an offer?
(I know Jacob has mentioned he was in a similar situation with TS & NRF in the past) Thanks

Hey - you've already had some really helpful responses but will add my experience:

I was offered a TC just before a VS - neither had restrictions on the other. I accepted my TC but did the VS anyway as I figured I would learn a lot from it (which I really did - it was full of departmental talks, career tips, etc.). I emailed the firm I did my VS with afterwards to let them know that I would be taking a TC elsewhere as a professional courtesy (did not want them to see it on LinkedIn).

However, I did have another VS arranged for the summer which I cancelled as I figured there was enough time arrange for another student to take my place (plus if I'm honest I was happy to have an extra week of my summer back).

 

[JayC]

You’ll need to check the T&Cs of your TC and VS offer. The VS offer could potentially be the one to block you from attending if you have accepted a TC elsewhere more than your TC offer.

If there is anything on either document, you could try to delay your TC acceptance period. If you are a penultimate year student you could use the code of best recruitment practice to state you should have until mid September to accept.

I agree with the comment above though. If this is your dream firm, getting exposure to another firm I don’t think is really going to give you much (in all honesty). Vac schemes aren’t really a proper insight into life in a law firm. I am biased, but that opportunity could also be taken up by someone who could then secure a TC. However, it’s your prerogative to do what you want if you have no restrictions from either firm.

I have seen it mentioned many times on here that people could be taking up someone else's opportunity of getting a TC by doing a vac scheme at a firm they don't want a career with - I'm wondering whether you mean that the firm could actually end up recruiting fewer people as a result of this? If not, then you could argue that by not attending you could be helping a new candidate to get a TC, thereby hurting one of the other original vac scheme candidates.

Basically, I wouldn't feel guilty myself about taking up someone's place unless there were actually a possibility of the trainee intake being decreased as a result, because then I truly would be taking up someone's place

 

[E1998]

Anyone heard back from Faegre Drinker?

 

[LawGrad2019]

I have seen it mentioned many times on here that people could be taking up someone else's opportunity of getting a TC by doing a vac scheme at a firm they don't want a career with - I'm wondering whether you mean that the firm could actually end up recruiting fewer people as a result of this? If not, then you could argue that by not attending you could be helping a new candidate to get a TC, thereby hurting one of the other original vac scheme candidates.

Basically, I wouldn't feel guilty myself about taking up someone's place unless there were actually a possibility of the trainee intake being decreased as a result, because then I truly would be taking up someone's place

Absolutely.

Plus, if you've applied for a vac scheme and been offered one, that can be considered to be separate from a TC in many cases (sometimes you can even apply for a VS without being considered on it for a TC).

For my first VS, I was so excited about doing it that I figured: I have worked really hard to get this, I have been offered it, it will only help me improve as a lawyer, they don't consider vac schemers directly for TCs, it's too late for them to find a replacement candidate, I have committed to doing it and I like to stick to my commitments, I may end up working for that firm in the future, plus I get paid for it. All very valid reasons to go ahead with it!

 

[Jessica Booker]

I have seen it mentioned many times on here that people could be taking up someone else's opportunity of getting a TC by doing a vac scheme at a firm they don't want a career with - I'm wondering whether you mean that the firm could actually end up recruiting fewer people as a result of this? If not, then you could argue that by not attending you could be helping a new candidate to get a TC, thereby hurting one of the other original vac scheme candidates.

Basically, I wouldn't feel guilty myself about taking up someone's place unless there were actually a possibility of the trainee intake being decreased as a result, because then I truly would be taking up someone's place

Yes - that can be an outcome.

 

[JayC]

Anyone heard back from Latham Dubai vac scheme?

 

[Anon 11031]

Just to chime in on the VS/TC conversation. I'm always very much leaning on the side of taking up a VS when you are absolutely certain you're accepting a TC somewhere else is taking an opportunity away from someone that might love that firm. This is especially the case if the VS is part of the recruitment process, in a firm like CMS for instance.

Also, though a VS is work experience to some extent...it's a lot about learning about you as a person, the firm and what they can offer and building a rapport with them so they can evaluate if you're a good fit. For me, personally, this would be a waste of both my time and theirs.

 

[Jessica Booker]

Loads of people will do internships just to build their CV up, with no intention of ever working for the firm but just seeing it as a step up potentially to a better opportunity. In many ways that is no different to someone doing a VS even if they have secured a TC. It’s just part of the system unfortunately, which in turn will make it more competitive.

 

[Anon 11031]

Loads of people will do internships just to build their CV up, with no intention of ever working for the firm but just seeing it as a step up potentially to a better opportunity. In many ways that is no different to someone doing a VS even if they have secured a TC. It’s just part of the system unfortunately, which in turn will make it more competitive.

It's really sad because I honestly know if I secured a TC I'd give any other vac schemes I had up in a heartbeat. There are so many things you can do when you actually start at your firm, and prior to that, that will help build your CV without having to take an opportunity away from someone else with minimal advantage for yourself.

Maybe I'm old fashioned that way, or maybe just overly empathetic of others...but that's my opinion.

 

[Jacob Miller]

Absolutely the right approach and tbh why on earth wouldn't you? Ultimately, you have to do absolutely what is right for you and what will benefit your career (sadly other people won't do it for you if you won't) so definitely look to make those connections and see where it takes you!

Totally agree re the spreadsheet - a relative of mine who has worked in finance for the last 25/30 years only started making a spreadsheet with his business contacts around 15 years ago and some of the names and companies that he's built up are seriously impressive to say the least! Apart from anything else you never know when an opportunity could come up that could benefit the both of you so it's incredibly worthwhile.

From an internal law firm networking perspective, I've been advised to keep a document of every matter you work on and who it was with and write a few lines saying what you enjoyed and disliked about it - when it comes to reviews and ultimately your case for partnership (if that's what you want from your career) then it can be incredibly helpful in showcasing your work and having people vouch for you!

Yeah I can agree on this front.

I left school 6 months early after getting Uni offers as I wanted to pick up a job to save for beer money additional expenses living away from home. Worked in the warehouse of my dad's company - really enjoyed the work but 100% felt that I had to 'prove myself' to the other warehouse boys.
I was paid the same, treated the same, etc as everyone else and wouldn't personally have had it any other way. A lot of the people who'd been there long-term have literally known me since I was born!
It was never a problem and I loved the work, got on dead well with my team etc, but definitely wouldn't want to be 'the gaffer's son' in a more corporate setting or as a long-term career option as it was always in the back of my mind.

 

[Jessica Booker]

It's really sad because I honestly know if I secured a TC I'd give any other vac schemes I had up in a heartbeat. There are so many things you can do when you actually start at your firm, and prior to that, that will help build your CV without having to take an opportunity away from someone else with minimal advantage for yourself.

Maybe I'm old fashioned that way, or maybe just overly empathetic of others...but that's my opinion.

The worse one I had was a vac schemer not even bother showing up. Didn’t call us to tell us they weren’t coming even on their first day. When we called them to check they were ok (because we were worried about them!) we got a really blasé comment that they had accepted a TC with another firm a few weeks ago and had forgotten to tell us. One of the times I had to really bite my tongue because had they told us, we probably could have got a replacement in time. Such a wasted opportunity.

People might think it’s a minor thing, but it has a compound effect. Every missed opportunity creates a bit of a chain reaction of missed opportunities. It may sound extreme but the person who missed that vac scheme opportunity could now be on a development programme to help them reach partnership! (And yes, I’m that old!).

 

[Jacob Miller]

Hi everyone! Long time lurker first time posting. I have been offered a TC at my dream firm. I also have a vac scheme coming up at another firm. I don't have the details of how long I have to accept my TC offer, but I'm pretty sure it's before my other vac scheme takes place. Can I still complete the other vac scheme having accepted my offer? (I haven't found anything in my offer letter that suggests otherwise - I also would really like the exposure of the other firm) Is it common to delay signing an offer?
(I know Jacob has mentioned he was in a similar situation with TS & NRF in the past) Thanks

Hi

When I was in this position, I just asked Travers to extent my TC offer time. Basically said "I'm pretty sure I want Travers but I've worked super hard to get onto the other scheme and I feel I owe it to myself to take part on that basis" - I basically just tried to be super honest and, as things transpired, it ended up being the case that my suspicions were confirmed and I felt Travers were a better fit for me. Travers were great about extending my offer and it was no problem at their end.

Generally, you can't complete a VS after accepting a TC - this will normally be in both the VS and TC contracts. I would just ask to extend and then make your mind up based on that

Edit to add: I should probably clarify that, by no means, was I doing the NRF scheme in the knowledge that, irrespective of the outcome, I would accept Travers. My gut instinct was saying that Travers was the right place for me, but, equally, NRF is an excellent firm and I genuinely went in open-minded! Just, in the end, my gut instinct was confirmed. Personally, doing a VS *in the knowledge you'll never accept an offer* doesn't sit super well with me.

 

[Anon 11031]

Hi

When I was in this position, I just asked Travers to extent my TC offer time. Basically said "I'm pretty sure I want Travers but I've worked super hard to get onto the other scheme and I feel I owe it to myself to take part on that basis" - I basically just tried to be super honest and, as things transpired, it ended up being the case that my suspicions were confirmed and I felt Travers were a better fit for me. Travers were great about extending my offer and it was no problem at their end.

Generally, you can't complete a VS after accepting a TC - this will normally be in both the VS and TC contracts. I would just ask to extend and then make your mind up based on that

Edit to add: I should probably clarify that, by no means, was I doing the NRF scheme in the knowledge that, irrespective of the outcome, I would accept Travers. My gut instinct was saying that Travers was the right place for me, but, equally, NRF is an excellent firm and I genuinely went in open-minded! Just, in the end, my gut instinct was confirmed. Personally, doing a VS *in the knowledge you'll never accept an offer* doesn't sit super well with me.

And this is the absolute key difference. Doing a VS when you have no intention of working with that firm and you want to accept a TC with somewhere else is a little pointless. The industry is competitive enough as it is!

But doing another VS scheme when you have a TC offer but you haven't completely made your mind up is a different story entirely. Well said, Jacob. ☺️

 

[Jacob Miller]

I have seen it mentioned many times on here that people could be taking up someone else's opportunity of getting a TC by doing a vac scheme at a firm they don't want a career with - I'm wondering whether you mean that the firm could actually end up recruiting fewer people as a result of this? If not, then you could argue that by not attending you could be helping a new candidate to get a TC, thereby hurting one of the other original vac scheme candidates.

Basically, I wouldn't feel guilty myself about taking up someone's place unless there were actually a possibility of the trainee intake being decreased as a result, because then I truly would be taking up someone's place

I get where you're coming from with this - you make a very interesting point. I can also definitely see why someone might square it with themselves by looking at it through this lens.

I'd say the argument slightly trips up when you consider that what you describe will not be 100% accurate for the sort of firms that we're talking about: most of them are big enough that, if they really like candidates enough, they will make room for them. My general (I stress general, not absolute) perception is that most post-VS rejections are because the candidate has genuinely fallen a bit short in an area (an assessed task, conversion interview, calibre of work for supervisors wasn't high enough etc) as opposed to "you were perfect but we had too many perfect people".

I think your argument might stand for smaller firms whose budget is v tightly capped at X trainees and absolutely no more, but I'm not as convinced of it in 'biglaw'.

 

[JayC]

I get where you're coming from with this - you make a very interesting point. I can also definitely see why someone might square it with themselves by looking at it through this lens.

I'd say the argument slightly trips up when you consider that what you describe will not be 100% accurate for the sort of firms that we're talking about: most of them are big enough that, if they really like candidates enough, they will make room for them. My general (I stress general, not absolute) perception is that most post-VS rejections are because the candidate has genuinely fallen a bit short in an area (an assessed task, conversion interview, calibre of work for supervisors wasn't high enough etc) as opposed to "you were perfect but we had too many perfect people".

I think your argument might stand for smaller firms whose budget is v tightly capped at X trainees and absolutely no more, but I'm not as convinced of it in 'biglaw'.

Oh that is interesting - so are the trainee intake numbers posted on LegalCheek not exact numbers? I guess I’ve been mainly interviewing with US firms with a trainee intake less than 10 or so, and I got the sense that they would hire the exact number regardless of circumstances but your point definitely makes sense! Then again, a candidate who ends up being perfect throughout a vac scheme will have had to be really unlucky to not shine enough in an interview to get the vac scheme initially imo

 

[Jessica Booker]

Oh that is interesting - so are the trainee intake numbers posted on LegalCheek not exact numbers? I guess I’ve been mainly interviewing with US firms with a trainee intake less than 10 or so, and I got the sense that they would hire the exact number regardless of circumstances but your point definitely makes sense! Then again, a candidate who ends up being perfect throughout a vac scheme will have had to be really unlucky to not shine enough in an interview to get the vac scheme initially imo

They are always estimates. A firm could easily recruit slightly fewer/slightly more.

We used to advertise 100 per year, but it was usually more like 95 each year by the time you had finalised the season.

 

[E.A]

Quick question guys, how would you address a memo to an internal manager or officer that you do not know the name of? Dear ...?

 

[Jessica Booker]

Quick question guys, how would you address a memo to an internal manager or officer that you do not know the name of? Dear ...?

“Dear Job Title” would be my shout if you didn’t know their first name (which would be odd if internal).

 

[RoughWood]

Has anyone heard from Bevan Brittan? 2 months since closing now...

 

[Anon 11031]

Has anyone heard from Bevan Brittan? 2 months since closing now...

Haven't heard anyone that has heard back. I'm just going to go for the TC application - don't know what they're doing with the VS 🤷‍♀️