TCLA General Discussion Thread #2 (2021)

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Anon 11031

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Didn't hear that, but I'm aware of people in top 200 law firms securing TCs where parents are the Partners. I don't want to blackball that ever happening, as you would hope that family doesn't play a part in the decision making process and the candidate gets the job based on merit and performance!
Apparently the application process was blind but I think that's besides the point, when your parent is the MP at the law firm you're applying to you're evidently going to have the upper hand as they could pretty much write your application for you if needs be. And also, they're the MP...they could literally just ask recruitment what the VS is going to be like this year and what not.

I think firms that take the approach of 'if your immediate family member is at senior associate, partner level or above we will not accept your application' are sensible. I've seen a few firms like that.
 

LawGrad2019

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I have second hand anxiety for them. Tax law is complex af and a really unique specialism. Can't talk for the other areas as I have no experience but this is pretty naively ambitious 😂

I guess it's totally possible to move across as @Matt_96 says (and people do this all the time) - I'm just not sure how much of a 'gift' that nepotism actually was as I can't imagine anything worse than starting a new job as a qualified lawyer with no experience in my area!
 
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FM302989

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    Good discussion!

    I think I'm gonna see what networking I can manage during my corporate seat/any transactional work I'm involved with. May need some mentorship guidance on how to do that or contacts at other firms who can introduce me to firms that I may find a good fit with
     

    Wannabelawyer10

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    Feb 27, 2021
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    Apparently the application process was blind but I think that's besides the point, when your parent is the MP at the law firm you're applying to you're evidently going to have the upper hand as they could pretty much write your application for you if needs be. And also, they're the MP...they could literally just ask recruitment what the VS is going to be like this year and what not.

    I think firms that take the approach of 'if your immediate family member is at senior associate, partner level or above we will not accept your application' are sensible. I've seen a few firms like that.
    I did the Walker Morris application and it asks you to give details of any links you have to the firm, so not sure how 'blind' it is haha
     

    LawGrad2019

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    Good discussion!

    I think I'm gonna see what networking I can manage during my corporate seat/any transactional work I'm involved with. May need some mentorship guidance on how to do that or contacts at other firms who can introduce me to firms that I may find a good fit with

    The best advice I have been given is (a) have a detailed, active LinkedIn, (b) keep a spreadsheet/note of every helpful contact you meet throughout your career (GDPR compliant of course :p), and (c) follow-up introductions with a nice message.
     

    FM302989

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    The best advice I have been given is (a) have a detailed, active LinkedIn, (b) keep a spreadsheet/note of every helpful contact you meet throughout your career (GDPR compliant of course :p), and (c) follow-up introductions with a nice message.
    Yeah I've met some decent people through LinkedIn! Always helpful when you ask clear questions you want to know an answer to!
     
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    Dheepa

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    Do Partners, Directors, senior management ever intervene if the HR/recruitment process is not up to standard or generally provides a very inadequate experience for candidates?

    Just thought this could be an interesting question for the general thread. Especially as there was an article recently in the Law Gazette discussing how many extra stages legal recruitment requires candidates to go through

    Soooo, not a law firm but a friend of mine got her job in the legal team in the London offices of a big NY hedge fund through her bf’s mom who works in HR. On one hand, great inside contact for me at a huge hedge fund, on the other hand, can’t say I thought it was fair either.
     
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    Jessica Booker

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    I guess it isn't. I think I see it as low in context because that's the lowest score given in the training and work categories and the other firms I'm applying to are all ranked as A/A*.
    It’s all subjective. I don’t think the difference between an A or B is a good indication.

    It all comes down to preferences and expectations. The training at the firm with the B could actually be better just because everyone at that firm has very high expectations, while the firm with an A, their trainees have lower expectations.

    Maybe firm with an A were sent their survey the week after bonus/pay rises etc, while maybe the firm with a B was surveyed after they had to do some annoying compliance training.
     
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    FM302989

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    Soooo, not a law firm but a friend of mine got her job in the legal team in the London offices of a big NY hedge fund through her bf’s mom who works in HR. On one hand, great inside contact for me at a huge hedge fund, on the other hand, can’t say I thought it was fair either.
    It's the combination of things like this, infinite application stages, making it a full-time job in itself, brutalising candidate's mental health and confidence, especially if stages or deadlines are objectively ridiculous.

    Think the whole process has been this way for so long that it's not possible to change and it's only going to stay this way with more and more applicants applying across the board
     

    Jessica Booker

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    Do Partners, Directors, senior management ever intervene if the HR/recruitment process is not up to standard or generally provides a very inadequate experience for candidates?

    Just thought this could be an interesting question for the general thread. Especially as there was an article recently in the Law Gazette discussing how many extra stages legal recruitment requires candidates to go through
    It is usually the other way around to be honest. HR usually intervene when the lawyers don’t do their assessing job correctly or don’t provide a positive experience

    Grad Rec teams work with partners dedicated to Grad Rec/Grad development throughout the year. They don’t do things without sign off from those partner(s) and with their agreement. I had a panel of 4 at FBD of which there was a lead partner who was the training principal at the time.

    Like most departments any complaints about processes can go further up the food chain depending on their seriousness. 99 out of 100 times that is just the GR lead/manager dealing with someone disgruntled. In cases where there is a legitimate concern, it is usually raised with the head of HR/HR Director and the partners responsible for Graduate Recruitment.

    Given diversity concerns, often these multiple stages are needed to ensure they recruit the best people. The competitiveness of the industry and the high standards they generally have mean multiple assessments are required. It’s frustrating but the other end of the scale is having a more limited process where candidates have less opportunity to prove someone should look beyond their CV.
     

    Jessica Booker

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    What seats should I do for my vac scheme fellas? I'm quite interested in Dispute Resolution so I'd like to do that, but I have to put down two more choices as well. I'm not 100% clear on what the options are but I know they include Corporate, Real Estate and Employment. What would you do?
    Whatever you are interested in the most
     
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    karinny

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    I did the Walker Morris application and it asks you to give details of any links you have to the firm, so not sure how 'blind' it is haha
    This just shows how imperative social mobility initiatives are. It bothers me a lot when firms say they're inclusive and diverse but what have they REALLY done to increase accessibility in the legal profession when we hear news like this. Just looks like they're saying they're inclusive just to fill quotas. Seeing that trainees are recruited due to their parents working there is incredibly disheartening and discouraging for those who have no connections like that at all.
     

    Jessica Booker

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    Didn't hear that, but I'm aware of people in top 200 law firms securing TCs where parents are the Partners. I don't want to blackball that ever happening, as you would hope that family doesn't play a part in the decision making process and the candidate gets the job based on merit and performance!
    A lot of law firms have policies where partners direct relatives can’t be employed by the firm.

    The “links” to the firm question is also sometimes used to deal with the nepotism, especially with clients. The question was an absolute life saver for me (before GDPR) because I could tell the internal person/client manager that I was going to turn down their son/daughter/niece/step kid without it all kicking off after I had done it.

    Let’s put it this way, I have never had to have a conversation about HR/Grad Rec encouraging nepotism, it has always been from lawyers/clients who think we should hire someone they know!
     

    FM302989

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    It is usually the other way around to be honest. HR usually intervene when the lawyers don’t do their assessing job correctly or don’t provide a positive experience

    Grad Rec teams work with partners dedicated to Grad Rec/Grad development throughout the year. They don’t do things without sign off from those partner(s) and with their agreement. I had a panel of 4 at FBD of which there was a lead partner who was the training principal at the time.

    Like most departments any complaints about processes can go further up the food chain depending on their seriousness. 99 out of 100 times that is just the GR lead/manager dealing with someone disgruntled. In cases where there is a legitimate concern, it is usually raised with the head of HR/HR Director and the partners responsible for Graduate Recruitment.

    Given diversity concerns, often these multiple stages are needed to ensure they recruit the best people. The competitiveness of the industry and the high standards they generally have mean multiple assessments are required. It’s frustrating but the other end of the scale is having a more limited process where candidates have less opportunity to prove someone should look beyond their CV.
    Okay this is a fantastic insight, really interesting to hear.

    Out of curiosity, of the people raising complaints that are disgruntled candidates, do many of them raise legitimate concerns about the process? And do these comments get taken on board frequently?
     
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    poppyia

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    It's not a PFO until it's a PFO.

    If they gave you a timeliness for when you could expect to hear back, and it's more than a week or so past that, I would follow up. Similarly, if they didn't give you a deadline, I think enough time has gone past that emailing them would be reasonable.
    nevermind- just got the AC invite!
     

    Jessica Booker

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    Okay this is a fantastic insight, really interesting to hear.

    Out of curiosity, of the people raising complaints that are disgruntled candidates, do many of them raise legitimate concerns about the process? And do these comments get taken on board frequently?
    I can only talk about the teams I have worked in/run.

    99% of complaints are candidates p*ssed off with the decision on their application where they have been unsuccessful. To put it into its extreme context, I was once stalked by a candidate who wouldn’t take no for an answer. They usually have no grounds for the complaint and their application. You have to remember the vast majority of people who apply are going to be rejected, so most complaints centre around this.

    I am struggling to think of any “legitimate” concerns that were down to the process - but maybe I have just been lucky/ran a good ship 😂.

    I have had complaints about individual interviewers and they have been either taken off interview panels or have been retrained.

    I have had complaints about how unnecessary assessments are (usually when people fail them) and then you just go through the legitimate reasons as to why those assessments are valid/reliable.

    You get a lot of complaints about the lack of feedback, and then you have to explain you haven’t got time to do this as you’d need someone full-time just giving feedback to individuals for 7-8 weeks just for applications alone.

    Grad Rec/HR don’t just make up these recruitment processes on the back of an envelope. They are usually thought through and professionally designed systems that have been tested/piloted and found to be successful. There is a lot of work put in to adapting and amending them when evidence suggests they could be better.
     

    Jessica Booker

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    Hi

    Does anyone have an insight into how SHL inductive and deductive tests are scored? I need to complete both but I am really struggling with the timeframes.
    Would it be better to prioritise accuracy (correct answers) whilst not finishing, or answering all questions?
    There won’t be a standard for this unfortunately. It can vary massively.
     

    Nnu

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  • Mar 9, 2021
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    Hi

    Does anyone have an insight into how SHL inductive and deductive tests are scored? I need to complete both but I am really struggling with the timeframes.
    Would it be better to prioritise accuracy (correct answers) whilst not finishing, or answering all questions?
    if here you're talking about the Browne Jacobson tests, it says on it to answer all to avoid score deductions! guessing that means finishing all is more important!
     

    CharlotteLegal

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    if here you're talking about the Browne Jacobson tests, it says on it to answer all to avoid score deductions! guessing that means finishing all is more important!
    How did you find it? I just did mine and idk if I’m slow but I found it really hard to finish in time and basically rushed through the last two questions on the deductive reasoning! I think the ones I did went well though :(
     
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