TCLA Vacation Scheme Applications Discussion Thread 2022-23

[Ja H]

Hi - I got the invite last Friday for the VI!

Hey, idk how helpful this is but I did the WG on the 12 of Jan and received a VI invite 2 days ago

ooh okay thanks!

 

[hanz123]

yeah and ngl the comment "pale, male and stale" is a little offensive. Would not make a comment like this about other groups in regards to a diff profession.

There is also an overrepresentation of some minorities and women in a lot of firms.

Don't know what firms your on about

 

[Denver]

I agree that acknowledgement of past misdeeds is obviously a good thing - but you don't have to take away from people who are not the cause of those misdeeds in the present day. The calculation is necessary because as the other guy said if you want to do a retrospective correction then you would want to make sure that you don't go too far in the opposite direction because that's obviously discrimination.

I guess the issue is that I keep hearing about the theorizing of this without any actual substantive methods on how to resolve such issues fairly.

I understand that you feel like something is being 'taken away from people who are not the cause of those misdeeds', but in the same way, if you flip that argument, people being born with specific characteristics (gender, disability, skin colour etc) continue to suffer from the historic misdeed. Therefore I think we all have a responsibility to mitigate this, regardless of personal accountability calculations. (The same way we have to pay for gov debt, although our generation was not responsible for it)

(Plus, people have been so comfortable with a HUGE overrepresentation of one gender and ethnicity for the majority of the time. It's interesting that a relatively small overrepresentation of historically underrepresented groups is that scary eh?)

 

[Harrison.jm]

7 times?!?!

Spread out over two weeks, of course ⛄

 

[Donuttime]

Spread out over two weeks, of course ⛄

Omg what firm if you don’t mind? I find it interesting when grad rec or interviewers look through LinkedIns

my LinkedIn isn’t updated so would there be a case for me to update it?

 

[157gg]

no, this is absolutely nothing new. I am happy to provide you with some data. This data is from 2018 so it is worth looking at the diversity data at the time. This is from diversityuk.org "In 2018 about 13.8% of the UK population was from a minority ethnic background"

In the year 2018 these are some examples of some firms and the percentage of their trainees from Ethnic Minority backgrounds:

Allen & Overy 26%
Clifford Chance 38%
HSF 26%
Latham 33%
White & Case 23%
Linklaters 31%

Overall in 2018 the % of trainees from ethnic minorities in US city firms was 21% and in UK city firms was 20%

This is an "Overrepresentation" in proportion to the population

Again, I do not disagree that there is a problem at partnership level, but the denial of the data is frustrating.

I would also remark that diversity has likely improved from 2018 but more recent data is not so readily available.

Source: https://www.chambersstudent.co.uk/where-to-start/newsletter/law-firm-diversity-201819

I would like to point out that this data fails to take an intersectional approach entirely. The data you have presented does not account for ethnic minority women specifically. How much of the overall 20% in the UK were actually women from an ethnic minority background? Likely not much.

You cannot separate women and ethnic minority for the people that are both.

 

[CorpLawyer00]

I understand that you feel like something is being 'taken away from people who are not the cause of those misdeeds', but in the same way, if you flip that argument, people being born with specific characteristics (gender, disability, skin colour etc) continue to suffer from the historic misdeed. Therefore I think we all have a responsibility to mitigate this, regardless of personal accountability calculations. (The same way we have to pay for gov debt, although our generation was not responsible for it)

(Plus, people have been so comfortable with a HUGE overrepresentation of one gender and ethnicity for the majority of the time. It's interesting that a relatively small overrepresentation of historically underrepresented groups is that scary eh?)

I do not want to carry on an argument because this has gone beyond the realm of my original point but I just want to point out that I DO NOT THINK THAT OVEREPRESENTATION OF ethnic minorities is "scary" or negative in any way as long as there is still a merit based selection process. I was simply pointing out the actual data in response to statements that were pretty untrue!

 

[NotLord Denning]

The issue is that it is not simply a 'past misdeed'... Colonialism and racism(s) have had everlasting repercussions. Read up on it.

Assuming that I agree with that premise (I don't, at least to the extent that it is of so globally significant as to require drastic overcorrection), this still brings me back to my first point: how do we address this precisely so as not to allow for discrimination the other way

 

[NotLord Denning]

I understand that you feel like something is being 'taken away from people who are not the cause of those misdeeds', but in the same way, if you flip that argument, people being born with specific characteristics (gender, disability, skin colour etc) continue to suffer from the historic misdeed. Therefore I think we all have a responsibility to mitigate this, regardless of personal accountability calculations. (The same way we have to pay for gov debt, although our generation was not responsible for it)

(Plus, people have been so comfortable with a HUGE overrepresentation of one gender and ethnicity for the majority of the time. It's interesting that a relatively small overrepresentation of historically underrepresented groups is that scary eh?)

Ok so how is this to be done

 

[CorpLawyer00]

I would like to point out that this data fails to take an intersectional approach entirely. The data you have presented does not account for ethnic minority women specifically. How much of the overall 20% in the UK were actually women from an ethnic minority background? Likely not much.

You cannot separate women and ethnic minority for the people that are both.

Again, you have a fair point and I never really suggested otherwise. This could be applied to all of the data. I very much doubt that many of the white men who dominate partnership at city law firms came from working class backgrounds. I was simply correcting a common misconception which is thrown around frivolously all the time.

 

[pineappleonastick]

(Plus, people have been so comfortable with a HUGE overrepresentation of one gender and ethnicity for the majority of the time. It's interesting that a relatively small overrepresentation of historically underrepresented groups is that scary eh?)

Out of interest, at trainee/associate level, what exactly do you consider to be a 'HUGE' overrepresentation, given the racial demographics of the UK? Nobody is denying that there is an issue at partner level, but 82% of the UK is white.

 

[157gg]

Assuming that I agree with that premise (I don't, at least to the extent that it is of so globally significant as to require drastic overcorrection), this still brings me back to my first point: how do we address this precisely so as not to allow for discrimination the other way

Assuming that I agree with that premise (I don't, at least to the extent that it is of so globally significant as to require drastic overcorrection), this still brings me back to my first point: how do we address this precisely so as not to allow for discrimination the other way

Assuming that I agree with that premise (I don't, at least to the extent that it is of so globally significant as to require drastic overcorrection), this still brings me back to my first point: how do we address this precisely so as not to allow for discrimination the other way

Reverse racism is not a thing - read up on it lol

 

[pineappleonastick]

Reverse racism is not a thing

Agreed, it's just racism.

 

[NotLord Denning]

Reverse racism is not a thing

I agree? Racism is racism. Regardless of who's doing it to whom

 

[Harrison.jm]

Omg what firm if you don’t mind? I find it interesting when grad rec or interviewers look through LinkedIns

my LinkedIn isn’t updated so would there be a case for me to update it?

Can't say - he may come back for an eighth time.

 

[peachlemonade]

PFOs I've received recently: Sidley Austin, Morgan Lewis & Cooley

 

[Denver]

Ok so how is this to be done

This is sort of too long and complex to answer, but there are many resources you can read up on discussing different solutions for different problems/sectors. What I can tell you is that it's most likely not just a one-time, single-dimensional fix

 

[NotLord Denning]

This is sort of too long and complex to answer, but there are many resources you can read up on discussing different solutions for different problems/sectors. What I can tell you is that it's most likely not just a one-time, single-dimensional fix

I hate to push you on this but I would need a specific example because I have read many of these proposed solutions and they generally all centre around the same principles - which are generally to rank order specific past instances of perceived oppression like slavery, genocide etc on a completely arbitrary basis and then to punish present-day people based on their accumulated score.

 

[Uvaia]

Agreed, it's just racism.

white people are not oppressed.

 

[Seven]

sorry, probably shouldn't have used that phrase. when i was at vinson & elkins, the phrase was used by one of their female partners who basically leads the organisation 'arbitral women' (an amazing organisation for any aspiring women commercial lawyers who are interested in international arbitration). the phrase has basically been popular ever since they coined, see this publication : https://ciarb.org/media/11400/aw-thac-the-power-of-gender-parity.pdf

but apologies in advance if i caused any offence x

The phrase "pale, male, and stale" was also used by a Female Partner at CRS also. I think it is used comically in the legal profession in a critical manner to suggest that the group is unrepresentative of wider society and may have limited perspectives or ideas. The phrase highlights the need for greater representation of women, people of colour, and other underrepresented groups in decision-making positions. I don't think it is offensive at all. It's a true representation of the legal world.