TCLA Direct Training Contract Applications Discussion Thread 2024-5

[cjwx]

Wish you good luck! Do you know whether there have been any next stage invites?

I don't think I have seen anyone progress post assessment for the direct TC route.

 

[spamelinazoid]

I was told by a partner that you essentially can’t get rid of a bad trainee which is why they do Vac Schemes. They said that there are many candidates who are very impressive on paper but lack certain soft skills that are necessary, or do not fit in well with the firm for whatever reason. Firms invest a lot into trainees and a 2/3 week vacation scheme is a good way of weeding out applicants who aren’t a good fit before committing to hiring them for the full 2 year traineeship.

I do fully agree it is difficult to complete with full-time employment though! I have completed two VS and the first one had only one graduate / career changer and the rest were current students. The second VS I completed (and now have an offer for) had about a 50/50 mix of students and graduates. Not sure if it was intentional or not

I absolutely see why they would like to test out some people before they hire them - especially when they’re so young with little experience or industry exposure. But having this as the only recruitment method is a big F U to a very large pool of candidates who cannot take 2-3 weeks off to do this (or are not allowed to due to visa restrictions).

It’s also interesting (from my years in the industry) to note that the people who get the vac schemes almost always also get the TC offer. Which means that the assessment centre, considered alone, is actually a good indicator for who would make a successful trainee…

 

[Chris Brown]

I absolutely see why they would like to test out some people before they hire them - especially when they’re so young with little experience or industry exposure. But having this as the only recruitment method is a big F U to a very large pool of candidates who cannot take 2-3 weeks off to do this (or are not allowed to due to visa restrictions).

It’s also interesting (from my years in the industry) to note that the people who get the vac schemes almost always also get the TC offer. Which means that the assessment centre, considered alone, is actually a good indicator for who would make a successful trainee…

I might be wrong here, but wouldn’t the offer of a TC to those that did the VS, be based on the fact they did the VS and not based on their AC performance? I don’t think city law firms (who invest at least £100k in training) would be able to make a decision solely off of an AC. In the instance where firms have a DTC route, they normally seek substantial experience to make up for the fact they aren’t assessing you via a traditional VS. That’s why they can rely on just an AC. These routes are closed off to a lot of people as well (especially those that are socially mobile or live in the regions and have less access to opportunities such as legal work experiences in the city). 🥲

Law firms will want to see how well someone can do the job (on the job). The work of a trainee associate in a city law firm is different and requires a specific set of skills, which can only be assessed when tested in the workplace itself. Besides, how can we as applicants know whether a firm is truly the right one for us, if we haven’t had the chance to assess the firm via a VS? I don’t think I’d know whether any firm would suit me solely through a few interviews and assessments. A two year TC (with the aim of staying on as an NQ) is a significant investment and commitment for both parties, so I would think a VS route is fair game. A VS allows candidates to get a feel for the firm’s culture and meet its current associates and partners (who would be future colleagues). 🙂

These are just my thoughts. I don’t think firms should only have a VS route or only a DTC route. Ideally there should be both options. I just think either way, it’s a competitive process and there will almost always be a large talent pool that isn’t given a TC. That’s a part of how this whole thing works unfortunately. I think firms need to find a balance between ensuring they recruit the best talent but also making sure it has fair routes into entering in the first place (so as to not exclude anyone). I just don’t think it’s an all or nothing approach; firms can be committed to DEI and social mobility whilst also having a process that might result in some people being unable to get a TC (as @Broadwater has also mentioned in a previous comment). 🙂​

 

[spamelinazoid]

I might be wrong here, but wouldn’t the offer of a TC to those that did the VS, be based on the fact they did the VS and not based on their AC performance? I don’t think city law firms (who invest at least £100k in training) would be able to make a decision solely off of an AC. In the instance where firms have a DTC route, they normally seek substantial experience to make up for the fact they aren’t assessing you via a traditional VS. That’s why they can rely on just an AC. These routes are closed off to a lot of people as well (especially those that are socially mobile or live in the regions and have less access to opportunities such as legal work experiences). 🥲

Law firms will want to see how well someone can do the job (on the job). The work of a trainee associate in a city law firm is different and requires a specific set of skills, which can only be assessed when tested in the workplace itself. Besides, how can we as applicants know whether a firm is truly the right one for us, if we haven’t had the chance to assess the firm via a VS? I don’t think I’d know whether any firm would suit me solely through a few interviews and assessments. A two year TC (with the aim of staying on as an NQ) is a significant investment for both parties, so I would think a VS route is fair game. A VS allows candidates to get a feel for the firm’s culture and meet its current associates and partners (who would be future colleagues). 🙂

These are just my thoughts. I don’t think firms should only have a VS route or only a DTC route. Ideally there should be both options. I just think either way, it’s a competitive process and there will almost always be a large talent pool that isn’t given a TC. That’s a part of how this whole thing works unfortunately. 🥲​

I said I noted that most vac schemers get the TC offer, and the vac scheme is obtained by an AC, so an AC is actually a solid indicator of whether someone would make it as a trainee at the firm. Ultimately for VSers the vac scheme is what determines is they get the TC offer - just anecdotally have noticed in the firm(s) ive worked at that most Vac Schemers do get the TC offer (literally only 2-4 out of per cohort 20 dont) so the AC is a solid indicator that they are a good fit if considering alone.

As for DTC apps, its not always the case that most candidates are mature/experienced . Many are students who cant do a vac scheme or dont want to do one, and they still get offers despite not having as much experience as mature candidates.

 

[legallady123]

I absolutely see why they would like to test out some people before they hire them - especially when they’re so young with little experience or industry exposure. But having this as the only recruitment method is a big F U to a very large pool of candidates who cannot take 2-3 weeks off to do this (or are not allowed to due to visa restrictions).

It’s also interesting (from my years in the industry) to note that the people who get the vac schemes almost always also get the TC offer. Which means that the assessment centre, considered alone, is actually a good indicator for who would make a successful trainee…

Yeah, I do see both sides 😕

I think honestly there is a huge element of luck when it gets to VS interview /AC stage. Most /all candidates are probably very impressive with similar grades, experience, soft skills, etc.

It probably just depends on whether the firm give out more vac places than training contracts.

 

[Chris Brown]

I said I noted that most vac schemers get the TC offer, and the vac scheme is obtained by an AC, so an AC is actually a solid indicator of whether someone would make it as a trainee at the firm. Ultimately for VSers the vac scheme is what determines is they get the TC offer - just anecdotally have noticed in the firm(s) ive worked at that most Vac Schemers do get the TC offer (literally only 2-4 out of per cohort 20 dont) so the AC is a solid indicator that they are a good fit if considering alone.

As for DTC apps, it’s not always the case that most candidates are mature/experienced . Many are students who cant do a vac scheme or dont want to do one, and they still get offers despite not having as much experience as mature candidates.

I don’t think there are many city law firms that offer TC’s to majority of the candidates on the VS. In most cases, I think that the VS to TC conversion rate is between 25-50%. Some firms, such as the Magic Circle, only recruit 1/2 of their trainees from the VS. The rest of its trainees are recruited from the DTC route. As a result, they probably only have very limited VS spaces anyway, so they can afford to have a higher conversion rate. Other firms however, don’t recruit as many trainees as the MC firms do.

For example, White & Case recruit 50 trainees a year. The firm has 3 VS and for each one there are 25 places (75 in total). To my knowledge, White & Case offers TC to around 50% of its VS candidates, but as a % of the TC offers available, it’s almost 80%! This leaves 10 slots open for DTC. However, of the 75-80 VS candidates, 35-40 don’t convert into a TC. It just appears that most people who do the VS receive the TC offer. It’s a similar situation with Hogan Lovells, who also offer 3 VS in each application cycle.

In reality, there is only ever a 1-3% chance of securing a TC with top city firms that receive between 1,000 to 5,000 applications for between 5-100 TC spaces. In my White & Case example, the firm gets almost 5,000 applications (same with Hogan Lovells), but both firms only offer up to 50 TC’s. For firms that offer fewer TC’s but receive lots of applications, it’s very risky to offer the bulk of TC’s via the DTC route (hence why most US firms that recruit between 5-20 trainees rely on their VS as the sole method of recruiting).

I think it’s better to broaden your choices of firms and focus on firms that offer the DTC route in addition to the VS route. Once you become an NQ, you can always laterally move to the firm you wanted to work for originally (that probably doesn’t have the DTC route). I just think firms are always going to be extra cautious about offering TC’s because it’s such fierce competition. They want to ensure they recruit the best talent in the market.​

 

[Ram Sabaratnam]

Thanks Jessica!

Also where are people finding info for the K&S application? they have barely anything about the TC on their website, no chambers student profile etc so basically only the Legal Cheek page is directly about the TC and that's not very detailed.

Hiya @desperateTCseeker1998

King & Spalding (K&S) is definitely one of those firms that's a bit trickier to research, but I've tried to put together some important bits of information together for you here.

The firm's London office is primarily known for its litigation and disputes strengths. You can see this primarily in their rankings on Legal 500 and Chambers UK. That being said, the London office has made a noticeable push on the transactional side in recent years. Over the last year alone, they've made several prominent hires in finance and corporate, and you can learn more about these hires here and here. If you're interested in construction and energy work, as well, the firm may be particularly appealing to you. The firm has also made some notable hires in terms of its disputes practice. In February 2024, Sir Max Hill KC, formerly the director of public prosecutions, joined K&S, making it the only US firm with four London-based KCs.

In terms of recent work, you may want to look into the following:

• In London, partners William Charnley and Marcus Young acted for Tradeshi Holdings on its JV with HSBC, which raised nearly $70m to scale up its network.
• On the contentious side, the firm advised Colombian oil refinery Reficar on the UK aspects of its high-profile litigation following an award of $1bn in actual damages through arbitration.
• K&S also represented the Republic of Turkey in an ICC arbitration filed by the Government of Iraq, a significant case touching on both private and public international law.

These are just some bits to get you going with drafting your application. I hope this helps with your research and good luck!

 

[desperateTCseeker1998]

Also anyone know how many TCs Baker Mckenzie typically give through the direct route? A 3 week vacation scheme was not feasible for me...

 

[spamelinazoid]

Also anyone know how many TCs Baker Mckenzie typically give through the direct route? A 3 week vacation scheme was not feasible for me...

Last year it was around 15 i believe

 

[congrades]

just did the WBD amberjack, got 7,4,6,7 really hope it's not a straight PFO 😭

 

[lawyerdreams]

Last year it was around 15 i believe

Where did you find this out?

 

[norothrow324]

Last year it was around 15 i believe

oh really, that’s great

 

[lucy_p]

Any suggestions on this question? Obviously depends on whether you use it or not but can't work out whether its a bit of a trick question?

'Have you used AI in preparing your application? If so, how? If not, why not?'

 

[yk1906]

Any suggestions on this question? Obviously depends on whether you use it or not but can't work out whether its a bit of a trick question?

'Have you used AI in preparing your application? If so, how? If not, why not?'

I think you can definitely use AI for proofreading

 

[billyonthespeeddial]

Any suggestions on this question? Obviously depends on whether you use it or not but can't work out whether its a bit of a trick question?

'Have you used AI in preparing your application? If so, how? If not, why not?'

Here's what I said for Jones Day and I got an AC

Have you have chosen to use AI tools (such as ChatGPT) in your application?
No
Provide a short explanation of your choice
While I believe AI tools can be useful in a number of circumstances, I did not feel the need to rely on them to express my motivation and experience in this instance.

 

[lucy_p]

Here's what I said for Jones Day and I got an AC

Have you have chosen to use AI tools (such as ChatGPT) in your application?
No
Provide a short explanation of your choice
While I believe AI tools can be useful in a number of circumstances, I did not feel the need to rely on them to express my motivation and experience in this instance.

Thank you, that's really useful. Congrats on the AC!

 

[RS Sanjanaa]

Does Stephenson Harwood take a heathy percentage of trainees from the direct TC route?

 

[gazdgazd11]

Does anyone know if we can add more work experience than 3 boxes provided in King & Spalding’s form? I was thinking about copying and pasting the boxes in the word document but Idk

 

[Jessica Booker]

Any suggestions on this question? Obviously depends on whether you use it or not but can't work out whether its a bit of a trick question?

'Have you used AI in preparing your application? If so, how? If not, why not?'

It isn't a trick question. The firm is just trying to understand how you are using such tools, if why you are deciding not to.

I think most firms know that AI is likely to factor into some part of most candidates' preparation but they just want to be sure you aren't relying on it or at least checking its reliability.

 

[futuretraineesolicitor]

apologies as this has been asked before but is there any vi component in mayer brown's direct tc process at all? the website says there is but ive seen contradictory info on the forum.