TCLA Vacation Scheme Applications Discussion Thread 2024-25

[Tintin06]

Milbank PFO post-app. Applied October.
Gibson Dunn VI, applied late September

Nothing here from either firm yet. Congratulations on the Gibson Dunn VI.

 

[Chill_solicitor]

Received a FF WG for their summer vac scheme.

I would appreciate any last minute prep advice since I have 2 days to complete it and haven’t practiced any tests!

I banged out the CC practice test and also FF practice test and then focused on areas I scored the lowest in by doing assessment day practice tests! Good luck!!

 

[D.I.YLaw89]

had their online assessment the other day

When did you apply, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[paralegaltotrainee]

After countless applications, I continue to be rejected.



I know rejection is something everything goes through, but honestly, and without sounding overly cocky, I’m quite shocked I’ve not had a single Vac Scheme offer, ever.



Quick summary:

• Corporate paralegal in London for 2 years
• 1st class degree at undergraduate from Russell group.
• Distinction in GDL
• fluent in multiple languages
• Multiple post grad degrees both from LSE in Corporate Law and in M&A. Bear in mind, these gave me the academic knowledge necessary to bridge the gap between theoretical academic law from the GDL to real work in a commercial law firm.
• pro bono advisor at a legal clinic for a year, and still do.
• Other legal roles including for trusts and for barristers

I sometimes wonder what else I can even do!



If they said bad grades, I would say fine, but I couldn’t have done better at undergraduate and GDL.



If they said, no work experience, I would say fine, but I have 3 different ongoing legal roles, including my paralegal role in a London city law firm, which clearly shows my experience - quite frankly, my paralegal role has given me some experience that even being a trainee would not.



I got to 2 AC’s last year. But got rejected after both.



This year, I still have a couple applications in the pipeline, but I’m honestly not hopeful at all. I will mention that an American firm which I attended their AC last year, this year failed me on the first round. Which, tbh, I don’t see how that makes any sense. With 1 year extra experience, suddenly I can’t get past the first stage, but last year I reached the last stage ? That to me makes no sense. I don’t mean to be rude, but I think that is BS!



What’s stopping me from giving up, after spending years studying and working in law?



If I did any other profession, I’d be so much further along, but I made the terrible mistake of wasting my time with law.

@Jessica Booker
@Jaysen

I'm also in a very similar situation to you. First class degree from a top university, academic awards, leadership positions at university, a few years of varied work experience (including 2 years as a paralegal in London), did a vac scheme last year (didn't manage to convert to a TC), and I speak multiple languages. I've also only received rejections so far this cycle. It's incredibly demoralising, and I often find myself having the same thoughts and feelings you’ve expressed here.

I just want you to know you're not alone in this. The legal field is tough, and the competition is relentless, but your achievements are impressive, and they show your resilience, dedication, and capability. While it doesn’t always feel like it, your hard work will pay off in time. Keep going – you've come so far already! 🏆

 

[Andrei Radu]

How to best research how a firm differentiates from its competitors and its position in the market? Would appreciate any insights @Ram Sabaratnam @Amma Usman @Andrei Radu @Jessica Booker

To add to @Ram Sabaratnam's excellent answer, I think you should conceive of 'competitors' and 'the market' in two distinct ways. Firstly, you have the broad sense of the terms, where we look at firms as a whole and compare them. Looking at a firm holistically will entail considering revenue and profitability, headcount, international offices and strategy, practice area/sector expertise, client base, history, growth model, patterns in type of deals/cases/matters the firm works on, various market recognition and so. Fortunately enough, over time an informal classification system of firms based on shared attributes has emerged - the legal press places firms in categories such as: the Magic Circle, the Silver Circle, more recently the 'Global Elite', the US firms, the large international firms, the regional firms, the high street firms etc. Then, to differentiate a given firm from other members in the category and to pinpoint its market position further, you can use the resources Ram mentioned for more in depth research.

To give an example, you can further break down the category of US firms between those that have large, medium or small-sized London offices. You can then break down between those that focus on providing a full service offering and those that target a specific selection of practice areas/sectors. If you then still need to break it down further, you should look at client base and volume and type of mandates advised on. You should be able to find statistics on deal/case values and volumes on publications like The Lawyer and Bloomberg Law, whereas for 'deal types' you should just take a look at the firm's listed expertise and see if you notice any patterns. Legal 500 is also quite useful here as it breaks down practice areas/sector expertise rankings with a more targeted/narrow scope and also lists related mandates/clients.

The second interpretation of the terms is a narrowed one, focusing on competitors and each firms' position within the marketplace of a specific practice area/sector. When identifying a firm's competitors in a given practice area/sector, you can once again make a further distinction between (i) competitors as in the selection of best firms in the area - the ones that are toughest to pitch against (which can be reliably identified by looking at the Chambers band 1 firms) and the one; and (ii) competitors as the firms your firm actually competes most for work with - the ones it is actually coming across most often when pitching for the same work. To identify a firm's position in the given practice area marketplace you once again want to look at (ii). What you want to see is if there are any common characteristics of most of the work done by your firm in the given practice area and the work done by the firms it is most often pitching against and see if you can in any way classify it as a type. To this end, you should also research any available statistics relating to the practice area's revenue, profitability, headcount, and mandate-specific statistics.

To give an example, say we are analyzing Davis Polk's corporate team. You can start with the Band 4 Chambers M&A ranking which in the context of its high profitability and small headcount can be seen as an indicator of great expertise. Going beyond this and looking at Davis Polk's London corporate M&A work you can identify a couple of features, such as a higher deal value/lower deal volume strategy, a focus on Transatlantic mandates, and a prevalence of matters form institutional clients. This already distinguishes the practice from that of most rivals. Analyzing the other Chambers-ranked firms, the only ones that arguably still fit the same description are Sullivan & Cromwell and Cleary Gottlieb. To further differentiate Davis Polk's M&A team from theirs you should look into their respective list of past mandates and market recognition and once again find new characteristics. In Davis Polk's case I would say those include the breath of types of deals they advise on (as they have comparable expertise in public M&A, private M&A, and PE) and particular expertise in TMT and financial services.

 

[andrecsaa]

This simply is not true. You are not restricted to paralegal roles.

I mean, for elite firms. If you qualify as a solicitor via SQE without a TC, you cannot apply for VS and TC at elite firms. Therefore, you will be restricted to paralegal roles or lateral hiring as NQ or associate at these elite firms.

It is very unlikely to get a NQ or associate role at elite firms without a TC and just with two years of paralegal experience.

I am stressing elite firms because the question asked about elite firms. However, I imagine that high street firms and boutique firms hires NQ and associates without a TC.

 

[3000to1shoteverytime]

I mean, for elite firms. If you qualify as a solicitor via SQE without a TC, you cannot apply for VS and TC at elite firms. Therefore, you will be restricted to paralegal roles or lateral hiring as NQ or associate at these elite firms.

It is very unlikely to get a NQ or associate role at elite firms without a TC and just with two years of paralegal experience.

I am stressing elite firms because the question asked about elite firms. However, I imagine that high street firms and boutique firms hires NQ and associates without a TC.

Nonsense I know someone who has done just that. You are over generalising and it isn't helpful.

 

[Kakaboo]

Does anyone have any advice on how to structure a motivations letter for an application? It's for a scheme with multiple companies and it's diversity themed. I'm thinking why law, what diversity means to me, why this scheme.

 

[mariistm]

Received an email from Burges Salmon that they are reviewing applications and that they will get back by COP Monday 27th. Weird because ACs have been offered!

 

[Kakaboo]

Hello, how would I answer

How would you describe commercial awareness, and can you provide an example of how you have developed / demonstrated this in a real-world setting?

I've never seen a question like this

 

[jacksollaf]

Sorry about this! Was it post WG?

not even no 😂 😂 😂

 

[andrecsaa]

The only way to qualify as a NQ solicitor in England and Wales outside of a TC is to have 2+ years of QWE in the UK and pass both SQE1 and SQE2. By completing the SQE/QWE route, you become ineligible for TC’s and VS because you don’t need to do them. 🙂

By completing the latter, you would be a newly qualified solicitor! Whilst the QWE gained may be through doing paralegal roles, once you become an NQ, you can begin practice as a solicitor at any firm. I don’t think you are limited to paralegal roles only. A paralegal is different to a solicitor. 🙂

To sit the SQE 1&2 exams, you need an undergraduate degree in any subject. Domestic (UK) students will have this. Most International students will have gotten their undergraduate degrees from another country. The SRA allow international students to sit the SQE on the basis that their undergraduate degree has been awarded by a recognised institution and country. 🙂

Having an LLM from the UK and passing the SQE is not enough to secure a role as a lateral hire associate at an elite law firm in the UK. These firms would require you to have done a TC with another firm or UK-based QWE for at least two years (SRA rules). 🙂

I think the disadvantage mainly stems from not meeting all of the SRA’s requirements that are needed in order to become an NQ solicitor in the UK. 🥲

You are right. You can practise at any firm after qualification. However, I was referring to the question about getting NQ roles at elite firms as an international student qualifying via SQE.

MC/SC/Global/Elite firms hardly hire solicitors without a TC or local LLB for NQ positions. High street firms and boutique firms are more open to offering opportunities for these candidates.

The two colleagues who got offers from elite firms' London offices that I mentioned passed the SQE1 after completing the LLM and getting the SRA exemption from SQE2 and QWE (for instance, SRA exempts practising lawyers qualified in the US, Australia, India, Brazil and Chile). However, they were an exception to this rule due to their +10PQE. All other international students I know (from the LLM, not a local LLB) struggled to find solicitor positions and work as paralegals (even after qualifying as a solicitor).

 

[andrecsaa]

Nonsense I know someone who has done just that. You are over generalising and it isn't helpful.

Sorry, it was not the purpose. I was just sharing my perspective as an international student qualified overseas and from experiences of international students I know from the LLM.

I also know international graduates who managed to do this after the LLB.

 

[Bloo]

Mayer brown AC invite received today (VI/SJT done 22/12)

 

[chrisbrown]

You are right. You can practise at any firm after qualification. However, I was referring to the question about getting NQ roles at elite firms as an international student qualifying via SQE.

MC/SC/Global/Elite firms hardly hire solicitors without a TC or local LLB for NQ positions. High street firms and boutique firms are more open to offering opportunities for these candidates.

The two colleagues who got offers from elite firms' London offices that I mentioned passed the SQE1 after completing the LLM and getting the SRA exemption from SQE2 and QWE (for instance, SRA exempts practising lawyers qualified in the US, Australia, India, Brazil and Chile). However, they were an exception to this rule due to their +10PQE. All other international students I know (from the LLM, not a local LLB) struggled to find solicitor positions and work as paralegals.

You don’t need an undergraduate LLB degree in order to become a solicitor in the UK. If for example you did a non-law degree (or an overseas law degree), you would simply just need to do the PGDL or the fast-track LLB degree for graduates. 🎓

If international students followed the same process as UK domestic students, there wouldn’t be any issues for them securing NQ positions at elite law firms. I think the disconnect is that most of the elite city firms are less familiar with the QWE route and so prefer the standard TC route for NQ’s. 🙂

That doesn’t necessarily mean they would turn away all NQ solicitors who chose to qualify via the QWE route. It would simply be an assessment of whether that QWE is sufficient for the firm and its requirements. Bear in mind that it isn’t just international students that choose to do the SQE/QWE route to qualification. Many UK graduates choose this path and find themselves to be in the exact same position. 🙂

I agree with you that candidates are less likely to get NQ positions at elite firms without having done a TC, but it’s purely because the QWE route is very new. Perhaps the SRA could make it clearer how it works so all elite firms can see there are two equal paths to qualification. 🙂

 

[Lizzie_Sullivan]

Received an email from Burges Salmon that they are reviewing applications and that they will get back by COP Monday 27th. Weird because ACs have been offered!

Can you share which BS office? I applied to their edinburgh office and I just recieved an email saying they will get back to us by February 14th.

 

[mariistm]

Can you share which BS office? I applied to their edinburgh office and I just recieved an email saying they will get back to us by February 14th.

Sorry, it’s for Bristol. I don’t think any ACs have been offered for Edinburgh yet, not from what I’ve seen on here

 

[Jessica Booker]

You don’t need an undergraduate LLB degree in order to become a solicitor in the UK. If for example you did a non-law degree (or an overseas law degree), you would simply just need to do the PGDL or the fast-track LLB degree for graduates. 🎓

If international students followed the same process as UK domestic students, there wouldn’t be any issues for them securing NQ positions at elite law firms. I think the disconnect is that most of the elite city firms are less familiar with the QWE route and so prefer the standard TC route for NQ’s. 🙂

That doesn’t necessarily mean they would turn away all NQ solicitors who chose to qualify via the QWE route. It would simply be an assessment of whether that QWE is sufficient for the firm and its requirements. Bear in mind that it isn’t just international students that choose to do the SQE/QWE route to qualification. Many UK graduates choose this path and find themselves to be in the exact same position. 🙂

I agree with you that candidates are less likely to get NQ positions at elite firms without having done a TC, but it’s purely because the QWE route is very new. Perhaps the SRA could make it clearer how it works so all elite firms can see there are two equal paths to qualification. 🙂

You don’t need a law degree or the GDL anymore. You just need any degree level education in any subject to be eligible to sit the SQE.

Elite firms know very well how the SQE/QWE system works and are using it in a whole host of ways to train people, including foreign qualified lawyers. The difference is that not all QWE is equal - the benchmark is exceptionally low and law firms are not just going to recognise any QWE. They are only going to be interested in QWE that is of a similar standard to their own training, which will have a much higher benchmark than what the SRA sets.

 

[Jessica Booker]

The only way to qualify as a NQ solicitor in England and Wales outside of a TC is to have 2+ years of QWE in the UK and pass both SQE1 and SQE2. By completing the SQE/QWE route, you become ineligible for TC’s and VS because you don’t need to do them. 🙂

By completing the latter, you would be a newly qualified solicitor! Whilst the QWE gained may be through doing paralegal roles, once you become an NQ, you can begin practice as a solicitor at any firm. I don’t think you are limited to paralegal roles only. A paralegal is different to a solicitor. 🙂

To sit the SQE 1&2 exams, you need an undergraduate degree in any subject. Domestic (UK) students will have this. Most International students will have gotten their undergraduate degrees from another country. The SRA allow international students to sit the SQE on the basis that their undergraduate degree has been awarded by a recognised institution and country. 🙂

Having an LLM from the UK and passing the SQE is not enough to secure a role as a lateral hire associate at an elite law firm in the UK. These firms would require you to have done a TC with another firm or UK-based QWE for at least two years (SRA rules). 🙂

I think the disadvantage mainly stems from not meeting all of the SRA’s requirements that are needed in order to become an NQ solicitor in the UK. 🥲

Just to clarify a few points on here:

- your QWE does not have to be in the UK - you can do your QWE in any country, it just needs to be signed off by an English qualified lawyer.

- if you are qualified in another country/jursidiciton you do not need to do two years of QWE. You just need to pass SQE1 and/or SQE2. Many foreign qualified lawyers also get an exemption from either SQE1 or SQE2 as well.

- Some firms are allowing people who have qualified under the SQE to apply for vacation schemes and training contracts, especially if they are foreign qualified lawyers or if their experience is in a very different area of law.

- Passing the SQE alone (even without an LLM) can be enough to secure an NQ role (or PQE role) if you have got comparable experience. You don’t need to have done a TC or have two years of work experience in the UK. You can have worked in any other country and have gained comparable experience in another jurisdiction.

- The SRA does not really have any requirements any more beyond the SQE1 and SQE2 assessments. The issue for firms is that the SRA’s requirements are so basic now in relation to QWE that firms have to put their own standards in place. For the most elite firms that standard is very high, and very few organisations are going to be able to meet that standard.

 

[aspirationalfashionlawyer]

goodbye to my love Cooley 🥲