TCLA Vacation Scheme Applications Discussion Thread 2023-24

[LehmanBrothersRiskManagementIntern]

I agree with the sentiment entirely, but there are also many, many BAME, disabled and working class Oxbridge candidates I’ve met at ACs -- and at large.

There’s a moral and cultural imperative for greater diversity at all levels of the hiring and recruitment process (as a lgbtq+ poc myself), but I don't think Oxbridge entails an inherent lack of diversity -- though its institutional dominance is something that is obviously worth interrogating.

Again, I agree but, respectfully, I do think it needs more nuance.

While I agree with your point about the moral and cultural imperative for greater diversity, the facts are different from my point of view.

For me personally, diversity is not just about white, black, Asian etc.

Why does a white eton educated Oxbridge graduate have more chances of getting a tc in comparison to a white working class non Oxbridge graduate?

Why does a black eton educated Oxbridge graduate have more chances of getting a tc in comparison to a black working class non Oxbridge graduate?

Yes, I agree about the institutional dominance. But I think saying that BAME, working class, and disabled candidates are at large at ACs it’s a stretch. Maybe that’s your experience, but mine has been different.

I have nothing against Oxbridge, but I despise elitism. A candidate should be evaluated taking every factor into account. From my point of view, a non Oxbridge working class person (whether ethnic minority or not) working part time during university and not being spoon fed cause of rich parents has more potential.

Moreover, how does a 19 years olds candidate from Oxbridge with nothing on his CV show a passion for a career in law? Firms are always crying about “passion for commercial law”, then how someone with no tangible passion for law in the CV showed up at the AC at a particular us law firm?

 

[Jessica Booker]

They are thinking of their clients. If they take Oxbridge, MIT, and Harvard graduates to a client meeting it looks more favourable for them in the pitch against other law firms. Would they really take 100% non-Oxbridge, like Uni of East London and Middlesex, I really don't think so. There has been a push for more diversity, but more is 1 or 2, they will not upset their status quo. Yes they will invite more to ACs, the vacation schemes etc, and maybe even take one or two for a TC, but in the long term, they know what they are after....I genuinely think law firms spend soo much money on diversity and inclusion, but its all just an illusion to appear more diverse. I would rather they did not, and instead hired a few more 'diverse' candidates for a TC and let them go at the end. At least that way they can make their own way in life.

Firms are seeing DEI as a badge of honour, but its not... It just shows how non-inclusive the firms are. I dont see TfL or the NHS doing DEI, because they have no need to. When will law firms get to the stage that they dont need DEI because its just there

This is over estimating people’s knowledge of people’s educational background, whether a client or a colleague in a law firm.

The idea that non Oxbridge trainee/lawyers don’t go to meetings because clients expect them to be from certain universities just doesn’t align with what happens in reality.

 

[Jessica Booker]

I kinda disagree with the clients comment. It’s actually the clients that are pushing firms to be more diverse because clients want to see greater diversity on their legal panels when pitching for work. In fact, several clients do specific awards for law firms with diversity. So it’s not looked as favourable at all if they see Oxbridge students during a client meeting. You will never see a client asking lawyers what their alma mater is, very unlikely. No clue where you got the idea from that law firms would supposedly use the fact that they’ve got Oxbridge alumni to pitch for work from clients.

Completely this.

I think many would be surprised as to how often clients ask for evidence of ED&I practices or policies in pitch documents or presentations, and that firms can often lose pitches because they don’t have the evidence their competitors do.

 

[S87]

While I agree with your point about the moral and cultural imperative for greater diversity, the facts are different from my point of view.

For me personally, diversity is not just about white, black, Asian etc.

Why does a white eton educated Oxbridge graduate have more chances of getting a tc in comparison to a white working class non Oxbridge graduate?

Why does a black eton educated Oxbridge graduate have more chances of getting a tc in comparison to a black working class non Oxbridge graduate?

Yes, I agree about the institutional dominance. But I think saying that BAME, working class, and disabled candidates are at large at ACs it’s a stretch. Maybe that’s your experience, but mine has been different.

I have nothing against Oxbridge, but I despise elitism. A candidate should be evaluated taking every factor into account. From my point of view, a non Oxbridge working class person (whether ethnic minority or not) working part time during university and not being spoon fed cause of rich parents has more potential.

Moreover, how does a 19 years olds candidate from Oxbridge with nothing on his CV show a passion for a career in law? Firms are always crying about “passion for commercial law”, then how someone with no tangible passion for law in the CV showed up at the AC at a particular us law firm?

Also, let's remember that many firms have bespoke dinners or events at Oxbridge universities, this is something I learnt during my vacation schemes. Some of my fellow vac schemers had also drinks with partners and associates after the vs and guess who is still on the forum?

 

[The-PFO-Collector]

I kinda disagree with the clients comment. It’s actually the clients that are pushing firms to be more diverse because clients want to see greater diversity on their legal panels when pitching for work. In fact, several clients do specific awards for law firms with diversity. So it’s not looked as favourable at all if they see Oxbridge students during a client meeting. You will never see a client asking lawyers what their alma mater is, very unlikely. No clue where you got the idea from that law firms would supposedly use the fact that they’ve got Oxbridge alumni to pitch for work from clients.

"You will never see a client asking lawyers what their alma mater is"
You just need to check the profile of law firms, that why they put their uni institution there.

The outcome kind of speaks for itself. If they truly wanted diverse candidates, they are applying in bucket loads, they are just not hiring, retaining and developing them...
but we can agree to disagree

 

[S87]

Also, let's remember that many firms have bespoke dinners or events at Oxbridge universities, this is something I learnt during my vacation schemes. Some of my fellow vac schemers had also drinks with partners and associates after the vs and guess who is still on the forum?

Having said that, I am black and disabled so I know how hard this process is and got two vs last year. However, there are some good people and firms that are pushing hard for people like you and me. A bit of positivity guys and let's write good applications. One question left to answer in my app and then endless amendments 🤣

 

[lonelycruise]

While I agree with your point about the moral and cultural imperative for greater diversity, the facts are different from my point of view.

For me personally, diversity is not just about white, black, Asian etc.

Why does a white eton educated Oxbridge graduate have more chances of getting a tc in comparison to a white working class non Oxbridge graduate?

Why does a black eton educated Oxbridge graduate have more chances of getting a tc in comparison to a black working class non Oxbridge graduate?

Yes, I agree about the institutional dominance. But I think saying that BAME, working class, and disabled candidates are at large at ACs it’s a stretch. Maybe that’s your experience, but mine has been different.

I have nothing against Oxbridge, but I despise elitism. A candidate should be evaluated taking every factor into account. From my point of view, a non Oxbridge working class person (whether ethnic minority or not) working part time during university and not being spoon fed cause of rich parents has more potential.

Moreover, how does a 19 years olds candidate from Oxbridge with nothing on his CV show a passion for a career in law? Firms are always crying about “passion for commercial law”, then how someone with no tangible passion for law in the CV showed up at the AC at a particular us law firm?

But there are many working class, non-Eton-educated Oxbridge students?

Also, how do you know what's on their CV? What a candidate reveals to you in an off-hand comment does not relate to their worthiness and validity to attend an AC.

I think, instead of somewhat diminishing the hard work invested by our peers, there are other ways to promote diversity.

I entirely respect your pov, but still think the conversation needs nuance.

 

[Jessica Booker]

Firms are seeing DEI as a badge of honour, but its not... It just shows how non-inclusive the firms are. I dont see TfL or the NHS doing DEI, because they have no need to. When will law firms get to the stage that they dont need DEI because its just there

Both TfL and the NHS invest incredibly heavily into ED&I, both with money and also resource. There will be hundreds of people across the NHS working in ED&I roles and at least seven at TfL.

 

[The-PFO-Collector]

This is over estimating people’s knowledge of people’s educational background, whether a client or a colleague in a law firm.

The idea that non Oxbridge trainee/lawyers don’t go to meetings because clients expect them to be from certain universities just doesn’t align with what happens in reality.

Thanks for the reply. I did not say non-Oxbridge do not go to client meetings. I meant that in my humble opinion, they will always maintain their Oxbridge base... some non-Oxbridge/Russell group will get the TC but I doubt there will be times when the pitch is entirely or majority non-Oxbridge/ Russell group.

"Both TfL and the NHS invest incredibly heavily into ED&I"...
My point still stands. When will law firms get to the point where they dont need DEI?
They must be spending hundreds of thousands on DEI, and yet its one in-one out...
Why not use that money to recruit more diverse candidates instead of pretending to do DEI.

Many DEI professionals have confirmed that some law firms just do DEI for lip service.

We can agree to disagree

 

[Seven]

"You will never see a client asking lawyers what their alma mater is"
You just need to check the profile of law firms, that why they put their uni institution there.

The outcome kind of speaks for itself. If they truly wanted diverse candidates, they are applying in bucket loads, they are just not hiring, retaining and developing them...
but we can agree to disagree

What does a lawyers profile on the website have anything to do with client meetings though? You are not making coherent points. Have you ever done a client pitch exercise at a law firm before?

I’ll break it down for you:
- Clients create a legal panel with several law firms pitching for work
- Law firms will present their strengths, practice areas, ED&I documents, similar deals, ESG credentials, etc.
- Clients will evaluate all the evidence and choose which law firm gets to represent them

At no point is educational background, university degrees, etc ever mentioned.

It’ll be surprising if a client for e.g. Google, BMW, etc. who are hiring diverse candidates will then look to law firms who only have Oxbridge students? How will law firms possibly be able to understand their business model and values, if they don’t have diversity on their legal panels?

 

[LehmanBrothersRiskManagementIntern]

But there are many working class, non-Eton-educated Oxbridge students?

Also, how do you know what's on their CV? What a candidate reveals to you in an off-hand comment does not relate to their worthiness and validity to attend an AC.

I think, instead of somewhat diminishing the hard work invested by fellow peers, there are other ways to promote diversity.

I entirely respect your pov, but still think the conversation needs nuance.

I am not diminishing anyone’s hard work. By the way I connected with them on LinkedIn, so it wasn’t an off-hand comment.

No one is diminishing anyone’s hard work, but why do I have to get a lot of work experiences and make my CV unique to get to AC while someone else shows up with society experience only?

Yes needs more nuance probably. But that doesn’t mean that everything is perfectly fair and fine in the recruitment process.

 

[law2022x]

I kinda disagree with the clients comment. It’s actually the clients that are pushing firms to be more diverse because clients want to see greater diversity on their legal panels when pitching for work. In fact, several clients do specific awards for law firms with diversity. So it’s not looked as favourable at all if they see Oxbridge students during a client meeting. You will never see a client asking lawyers what their alma mater is, very unlikely. No clue where you got the idea from that law firms would supposedly use the fact that they’ve got Oxbridge alumni to pitch for work from clients.

I think it’s more that some law firms want people who have a certain ‘polish’ because they think it means they’ll gel well with clients and can hold their own in conversations, and they associate Oxbridge students or applicants who are privately educated/middle class with having this ‘polish’. Of course they’re mistaken but because they want this worldly kind of person, they seem to think that students from idk Queen Mary or City University don’t have this.

People are subconsciously drawn to those who are similar to them. So I know during interviews with white male partners who are middle class, that my friends who went to Eton will be able to instantly click with such interviewers. Obviously law firms try a lot to overcome this but I think this is what OP was hinting at. They don’t think I can have that polish/or that they could train me to have that polish - or ability to make small talk or instant rapport. It doesn’t mean they don’t hire any students like this, it just means it is sometimes just a bit harder if you are a candidate who are from a certain background.

 

[Seven]

I think it’s more that law firms want people who have a certain ‘polish’ because they think it means they’ll gel well with clients and can hold their own in conversations, and they associate Oxbridge students or applicants who are privately educated with having this ‘polish’. Of course they’re mistaken but they want this worldly kind of person and seem to think that students from idk Queen Mary or City University don’t have this.

People are subconsciously drawn to those who are similar to them. So I know during interviews with white male partners who are middle class, that my friends who went to Eton will be able to instantly click with such interviewers. Obviously law firms try a lot to overcome this but I think this is what OP was hinting at. They don’t think I can have that polish/or that they could train me to have that polish - or ability to make small talk or instant rapport. It doesn’t mean they don’t hire any students like this, it just means it is sometimes just a bit harder if you are a candidate who are from a certain background.

I get your point but I think people are forgetting that your educational background has nothing to do with client meetings or clients in general. The fact that ‘polished’ students may gel well better with clients, has nothing to do with the clients when selecting firms to represent them. You also need to remember that “clients” are an entire company and not a singular person.

 

[S87]

Both TfL and the NHS invest incredibly heavily into ED&I, both with money and also resource. There will be hundreds of people across the NHS working in ED&I roles and at least seven at TfL.

The NHS is the biggest LGBTQIA employer, you should see their parade during the London Pride lol!

 

[Jessica Booker]

Thanks for the reply. I did not say non-Oxbridge do not go to client meetings. I meant that in my humble opinion, they will always maintain their Oxbridge base... some non-Oxbridge/Russell group will get the TC but I doubt there will be times when the pitch is entirely or majority non-Oxbridge/ Russell group.

"Both TfL and the NHS invest incredibly heavily into ED&I"...
My point still stands. When will law firms get to the point where they dont need DEI?
They must be spending hundreds of thousands on DEI, and yet its one in-one out...
Why not use that money to recruit more diverse candidates instead of pretending to do DEI.

Many DEI professionals have confirmed that some law firms just do DEI for lip service.

We can agree to disagree

Of course there will always be Oxbridge representation in law firms. That in itself is needed for the same reason that recruiting beyond Oxbridge is important.

Maybe every organisation “needs” ED&I for one reason or another. Some may not agree with that statement and I am obviously biased as it has been a key part of my career for the last 16 years, but I can’t see any organisation not needing it on some level to keep their organisations running successfully.

Law firm’s diversity is improving, so the concept of one in one out isn’t the reality either. The data says otherwise. Yes, there are still areas for improvement - particularly retention of certain ethnic minorities and women when they gain caring responsibilities. But the sector is getting more diverse, so it is working, albeit not consistently or throughly enough (IMO).

 

[lonelycruise]

I am not diminishing anyone’s hard work. By the way I connected with them on LinkedIn, so it wasn’t an off-hand comment.

No one is diminishing anyone’s hard work, but why do I have to get a lot of work experiences and make my CV unique to get to AC while someone else shows up with society experience only?

Yes needs more nuance probably. But that doesn’t mean that everything is perfectly fair and fine in the recruitment process.

I, for example, don't have even a quarter of my work experience on LinkedIn. It's too speculative a criticism to make, and I'd trust that GR know who's appropriate to process through a recruitment stage. (Even if I am eternally salty when I get PFOd).

I 100% agree that the lack of diversity is deeply unfair and troubling, but society experience is just as valid a way to show transferable skills -- even if your work experience is likely more impressive.

I think there's two arguments being conflated here: Oxbridge dominance and DEI. Both need to be tackled, but in different ways (even if there's invariable overlap). Anyway, don't want to clog up the thread -- I respect your pov!

 

[mfuturetrainee]

aaaanyway, not to poop the party but jus wanted some thoughts from people if zip law+ is worth it or not? is it useful?

 

[The-PFO-Collector]

Of course there will always be Oxbridge representation in law firms. That in itself is needed for the same reason that recruiting beyond Oxbridge is important.

Maybe every organisation “needs” ED&I for one reason or another. Some may not agree with that statement and I am obviously biased as it has been a key part of my career for the last 16 years, but I can’t see any organisation not needing it on some level to keep their organisations running successfully.

Law firm’s diversity is improving, so the concept of one in one out isn’t the reality either. The data says otherwise. Yes, there are still areas for improvement - particularly retention of certain ethnic minorities and women when they gain caring responsibilities. But the sector is getting more diverse, so it is working, albeit not consistently or throughly enough (IMO).

I have never said organisations do not need it
I'm stating that there is alot of lip service
Alot of DEI professionalls have confirmed this
Alot of diverse lawyers have spoken about many partners not seeing the need for diversity at all
So its there, everyone knows it

The original author was stating his experience
This is also an experience as a diverse candidate that I share

Thank you for realising that you may be bias
The fact is, we live it... You dont...

We can agree to disagree

 

[Seven]

aaaanyway, not to poop the party but jus wanted some thoughts from people if zip law+ is worth it or not? is it useful?

I’ve found it helpful with their commercial awareness blogs/articles, makes it very simple for the reader and links it back to how they relate to law firms. I’ve not used their deals tracker much, as I usually do research on deals with firms myself and find that there is more information online, but ziplaw do know how to make it more digestible for students tbh.

 

[mfuturetrainee]

I’ve found it helpful with their commercial awareness blogs/articles, makes it very simple for the reader and links it back to how they relate to law firms. I’ve not used their deals tracker much, as I usually do research on deals with firms myself and find that there is more information online, but ziplaw do know how to make it more digestible for students tbh.

thank you so much!!