2020-21 Vacation Scheme Applications Discussion

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Lastseasonwonder

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Anyone who got the NRF summer vac scheme, did you hear anything from grad rec after signing the offer letter?

@Jessica Booker usually what happens after signing an offer letter for a (summer) VS - it's been a while since I have and feel like I should have heard further info about scheme or something.
 

GK8997

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Anyone who got the NRF summer vac scheme, did you hear anything from grad rec after signing the offer letter?

@Jessica Booker usually what happens after signing an offer letter for a (summer) VS - it's been a while since I have and feel like I should have heard further info about scheme or something.
Hiya, so I can't speak for NRF but for my spring VSs I didn't hear from the firm again until about 2 weeks before my VS started so I don't think it's unusual after you sign an offer!
 
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Jessica Booker

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Anyone who got the NRF summer vac scheme, did you hear anything from grad rec after signing the offer letter?

@Jessica Booker usually what happens after signing an offer letter for a (summer) VS - it's been a while since I have and feel like I should have heard further info about scheme or something.
Depends on the screening/on-boarding processes. It wouldn’t surprise me if you don’t hear much for a few more weeks though.
 
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Andrew M

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I find this generally a really interesting discussion. I think, from a personal standpoint, a lot of lawyers get good at separating themselves personally/ emotionally from their work. Their job, obviously within the caveats and constraints of practice rules etc, is to do as good a job for their client as possible and their success is measured by the same. Obviously, these sorts of issues are going to manifest themselves very differently in a commercial context as opposed to a criminal law setting, but I think the principle broadly stays the same.

Before I went down the commercial route, I'd planned to go to the criminal bar in Scotland (and made some headway into it before realising I wanted other things) and this was something I thought about a lot (being asked "oh how could you want to defend someone who's done XYZ?!?!"). I always found it very easy to square with myself: everyone is entitled to a fair trial and a robust defence only serves to strengthen convictions, not weaken them.

That said, I definitely acknowledge that it's easy to say from the perspective, fundamentally, of an outsider. Can I say without a doubt that, if I'd been a lawyer in the run up to the '07 crash, and knew in advance that RBS was going to collapse, that I wouldn't have drained my accounts, or wanted (key word, wanted!) to tell my parents, or my gran, to empty theirs, knowing that they could lose everything they've worked for? Tough one, and almost impossible to answer without being in the situation, but the rules remain rules and they're ultimately there for a reason across every practice area and specialism.
I've always wondered how lawyers wrestle with this on a personal level - some situations must be tough on a personal level e.g. the law firm who advised banking clients pre-financial crisis in 2007/2008. Like at what point are you able to step in? Having studied Ethics on the GDL this year the line seems very blurry at best
It is an interesting discussion. My view is that professionals are generally capable of compartmentalising their personal values and performing their job in a spirit of bipartisanship. My partner and I both subscribe to progressive politics, and yet he works in commodities trading and I'm (hopefully) soon to be a commercial lawyer. It doesn't really factor for either of us because we're doing what we enjoy and what we are good at, helping clients within the parameters of the law.
 

Matt_96

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    I've always wondered how lawyers wrestle with this on a personal level - some situations must be tough on a personal level e.g. the law firm who advised banking clients pre-financial crisis in 2007/2008. Like at what point are you able to step in? Having studied Ethics on the GDL this year the line seems very blurry at best

    I think the main thing is not to confuse professional ethics with commonplace morals. A solicitor or other professional's duties to his client and the profession are only tangentially aligned with what the general public would deem fair and just behaviour. If their behaviour isn't known to be illegal, in support of potentially illegal objectives or contrary to SRA rules there is no compelling reason for the firm to turn down work from any client, unless the partners in charge calculate that the costs of any reputational damage outweigh the commercial benefits.

    When you look at firms advising banking clients on products like credit default swaps in 2008, most of the major banks that they would have acted for would have been involved. These firms probably didn't see advising on these products as a problem at all - I don't think such behaviour was illegal and regulatory oversight in major financial centres was in a very different place at the time. Maybe they would have had a moral reckoning after everything crashed, but I doubt there was beforehand.
     

    Andrew M

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    I think the main thing is not to confuse professional ethics with commonplace morals. A solicitor or other professional's duties to his client and the profession are only tangentially aligned with what the general public would deem fair and just behaviour. If their behaviour isn't known to be illegal, in support of potentially illegal objectives or contrary to SRA rules there is no compelling reason for the firm to turn down work from any client, unless the partners in charge calculate that the costs of any reputational damage outweigh the commercial benefits.

    When you look at firms advising banking clients on products like credit default swaps in 2008, most of the major banks that they would have acted for would have been involved. These firms probably didn't see advising on these products as a problem at all - I don't think such behaviour was illegal and regulatory oversight in major financial centres was in a very different place at the time. Maybe they would have had a moral reckoning after everything crashed, but I doubt there was beforehand.
    It's funny actually because I'm just about to submit an essay on banking regulation which has been the bane of my life for the past three weeks. 😅
     
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    Daniel Boden

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    I think the main thing is not to confuse professional ethics with commonplace morals. A solicitor or other professional's duties to his client and the profession are only tangentially aligned with what the general public would deem fair and just behaviour. If their behaviour isn't known to be illegal, in support of potentially illegal objectives or contrary to SRA rules there is no compelling reason for the firm to turn down work from any client, unless the partners in charge calculate that the costs of any reputational damage outweigh the commercial benefits.

    When you look at firms advising banking clients on products like credit default swaps in 2008, most of the major banks that they would have acted for would have been involved. These firms probably didn't see advising on these products as a problem at all - I don't think such behaviour was illegal and regulatory oversight in major financial centres was in a very different place at the time. Maybe they would have had a moral reckoning after everything crashed, but I doubt there was beforehand.
    In the case of CDSs or CDOs that was partly, I'm sure, due to the fact the vast majority of people did not know how toxic those assets truly were! As you say banking regulation has changed significantly (for the better) since then thankfully so you would hope that such things on such a grand scale can be avoided now and in the future.

    Re your first point, I'd disagree that they're tangentially aligned because in the SRA principles, it says in point 2 that a solicitor must act "in a way that upholds public trust and confidence in the solicitors' profession and in legal services provided by authorised persons" and in the preamble that "should the Principles come into conflict, those which safeguard the wider public interest (such as the rule of law, and public confidence in a trustworthy solicitors' profession and a safe and effective market for regulated legal services) take precedence over an individual client's interests".

    I think you could make a pretty convincing argument that had the lawyers involved in the GFC known truly how toxic CDOs were and the impact of CDSs, they would have had a duty to take into account the wider public interest ahead of their banking clients but take the point that this probably would have only been truly evident after everything crashed.
     

    Daniel Boden

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    I find this generally a really interesting discussion. I think, from a personal standpoint, a lot of lawyers get good at separating themselves personally/ emotionally from their work. Their job, obviously within the caveats and constraints of practice rules etc, is to do as good a job for their client as possible and their success is measured by the same. Obviously, these sorts of issues are going to manifest themselves very differently in a commercial context as opposed to a criminal law setting, but I think the principle broadly stays the same.

    Before I went down the commercial route, I'd planned to go to the criminal bar in Scotland (and made some headway into it before realising I wanted other things) and this was something I thought about a lot (being asked "oh how could you want to defend someone who's done XYZ?!?!"). I always found it very easy to square with myself: everyone is entitled to a fair trial and a robust defence only serves to strengthen convictions, not weaken them.

    That said, I definitely acknowledge that it's easy to say from the perspective, fundamentally, of an outsider. Can I say without a doubt that, if I'd been a lawyer in the run up to the '07 crash, and knew in advance that RBS was going to collapse, that I wouldn't have drained my accounts, or wanted (key word, wanted!) to tell my parents, or my gran, to empty theirs, knowing that they could lose everything they've worked for? Tough one, and almost impossible to answer without being in the situation, but the rules remain rules and they're ultimately there for a reason across every practice area and specialism.
    It's interesting because as I said in my other comment, a solicitor is only supposed to do as good a job for their client as possible until it goes against upholding public trust in the profession where, in this conflict, the duty to the public is supposed to win out. Clearly, though, the reality in practice is often quite different!

    I can imagine this being a real dilemma for firms who obviously want to maintain clients and generate as much business as possible but at the same time are supposed to consider how their actions affect the perception of the profession as a whole
     
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    Jessica Booker

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    An odd one, but has it ever happened to anyone that he/she got invited to an interview stage a couple days after receiving PFO? (received PFO last Friday, got an email today saying that was an error, and now have been invited to attend an interview, which is great, but it is difficult to see how they could make that mistake).
    Errors happen. It is a process that relies on humans after all.
     
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    Andrew M

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    I think you could make a pretty convincing argument that had the lawyers involved in the GFC known truly how toxic CDOs were and the impact of CDSs, they would have had a duty to take into account the wider public interest ahead of their banking clients but take the point that this probably would have only been truly evident after everything crashed.
    I think hindsight can paint a misleading picture sometimes. Back in the 90s and 00s, financial products like CDS and MBS were hailed as innovative solutions to various other problems at that time by academics and politicians. So I don't necessarily think it's fair to presume that individuals en masse knew what we know now.
     
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    Daniel Boden

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    I think hindsight can paint a misleading picture sometimes. Back in the 90s and 00s, financial products like CDS and MBS were hailed as innovative solutions to various other problems at that time academics and politicians. So I don't necessarily think it's fair to presume that individuals en masse knew what we know now.
    That's precisely what I was saying? My point was that most lawyers or whoever else probably weren't fully aware of the toxicity of these products until after they had spectacularly blown up in everyone's faces and so couldn't really be blamed for that haha. The bankers on the other hand...

    PS: if anyone hasn't seen, I'd highly recommend Inside Job which won the best documentary Oscar - it details what led up to the GFC and is pretty shocking to say the least
     
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    Matt_96

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    In the case of CDSs or CDOs that was partly, I'm sure, due to the fact the vast majority of people did not know how toxic those assets truly were! As you say banking regulation has changed significantly (for the better) since then thankfully so you would hope that such things on such a grand scale can be avoided now and in the future.

    Re your first point, I'd disagree that they're tangentially aligned because in the SRA principles, it says in point 2 that a solicitor must act "in a way that upholds public trust and confidence in the solicitors' profession and in legal services provided by authorised persons" and in the preamble that "should the Principles come into conflict, those which safeguard the wider public interest (such as the rule of law, and public confidence in a trustworthy solicitors' profession and a safe and effective market for regulated legal services) take precedence over an individual client's interests".

    I think you could make a pretty convincing argument that had the lawyers involved in the GFC known truly how toxic CDOs were and the impact of CDSs, they would have had a duty to take into account the wider public interest ahead of their banking clients but take the point that this probably would have only been truly evident after everything crashed.

    You make some good points, but I think on your second para, you should factor in that it's still not really about public confidence, but what the regulator deems to be relevant to upholding public confidence. On the SRA website they point to examples such as discriminatory conduct and violence, or a firm sending inaccurate or misleading information in claims bundles. In particular, quite a few solicitors seem to have been struck off for advising clients to invest into fraudulent investment schemes. The common theme here seems to be law breaking or covering up the truth in some way.

    So, given that such financial products were legal at the time and there was no element of wrongdoing, I'm not certain that principle 2 would be relevant. In fact, I'm not even sure the current SRA principles and rules now were the same as the ones in 2012, let alone 2008! Under the current rules, I would argue that principles 5 and 7 (acting with integrity and in the client's best interests) are more realistic.
     
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