TCLA Vacation Scheme Applications Discussion Thread 2024-25

[Amma Usman]

Hi,

I wondered how we should reflect our LPC results that are not graded or only have the grade "Competent"?

The application form says to put all my LPC results, but the answers allow either a grade percentage or a Distinction, Commendation, or Pass. However, certain modules are scored Competent/Not Competent.

How should I reflect the Competent? - [should I put the overall grade, for example, Distinction, or just put Pass]?

Hey @Shermel Clarissa Francis , I have tagged @Jessica Booker here as I’m sure she’ll have more thoughts.

 

[Amma Usman]

Does anyone know if it is worth still applying for Trowers & Hamlins? I know they recruit on a rolling basis and it is quite late.

Hey @cleojwilliams , I have just checked and seen their deadline is not until the 6th of January. In my experience, you are still in a good place to apply now. Many firms receive the bulk of their applications in the last two weeks so now is a reaosnable time to submit.

 

[studentdelaw786]

can anyone applying to Davis Polk please confirm who we are addressing the cover letter to?

 

[Amma Usman]

I have no clue how to answer the 'why commercial law' question because my interest in the career is an accumulation of different experiences. For example, working with my parents on their legal immigration documents/ translating what the lawyers would say when we moved to the UK, as well as working with the family companies litigation cases that happened over the years/ hearing about them and the process which they decided to follow (based on the advice of the legal team). I feel like its not clear when I write it or seems uncertain. How would I best frame these to link to commercial law/ the work companies do?

Hey @Reem2024 ,

First of all, this is an excellent link. I will touch on how you could integrate the ‘why commercial law‘ part in more detail below.

Answering ’why commercial law’, sometimes, doesn’t have to include instances where your first exposure was to commercial law and commercial law alone. In fact, for most people, it’s a subsequent exposure to commercial law, after first being exposed to other areas, which made them know this is the true profession for them. For example, you could say you experienced immigration law and found that you liked the legal aspect of it, the X and Y aspect of it, and so on. Then, you could contrast with another experience that is more business-oriented (doesn’t have to be exactly commercial law!), and expand on how you enjoyed this side more. For me, I knew I wanted to be a lawyer regardless of specialisation. So, all that was left was to adequately explain why I liked the clientele approach from a commerce perspective.

I believe you could also link the cross-jurisdictional work of commercial law on an international scale with your language abilities. For me, I enjoyed learning Arabic and transliterating information to English. I wanted to continue with this by working at a global firm with a strong Middle East presence.

As you have also been exposed to litigation, you would have a strong point to reference whilst applying to disputes-focused firms. With litigation, you could highlight how you gained insight into conflict resolution and the importance of understanding a client’s business objectives when advising them. It’s also an excellent way to demonstrate that you’re familiar with the contentious side of law and how disputes can be resolved effectively (key skills for commercial law).

I could also link your experience to another practice area in commercial law firms, the private client practice, because your work with the family business cases likely gave you exposure to the overlap between personal and commercial legal issues. Many commercial firms have private client teams that handle matters for entrepreneurs, family-run businesses, and high-net-worth individuals. Your familiarity with these dynamics could be framed as understanding the legal landscape and also the human side of decision-making, which is critical in private client work.

The point I want to emphasise is that direct commercial experience is valuable, but not necessary. We have all been exposed to many practice areas at some point in our lives, it’s really just about digging those out when writing an application.

Best of luck, and I know you will do great! I’m sure @Ram Sabaratnam @Andrei Radu and @Jessica Booker will have more to say on this.

 

[Jessica Booker]

Hi,

I wondered how we should reflect our LPC results that are not graded or only have the grade "Competent"?

The application form says to put all my LPC results, but the answers allow either a grade percentage or a Distinction, Commendation, or Pass. However, certain modules are scored Competent/Not Competent.

How should I reflect the Competent? - [should I put the overall grade for the LPC, for example, Distinction, or just put Pass]?

You can just list it as a pass - the firm will be aware of the modules that only receive the competent grading and in this instance, a pass would be the best option to select.

 

[legal18]

Know someone that got a Weil VI

 

[Amma Usman]

can anyone applying to Davis Polk please confirm who we are addressing the cover letter to?

Hey @studentdelaw786 , I have tagged @Andrei Radu here as I’m sure he’ll have more thoughts on this.

 

[studentdelaw786]

Hey @studentdelaw786 , I have tagged @Andrei Radu here as I’m sure he’ll have more thoughts on this.

Thanks Amma!

 

[Annahubb]

Hey I just used the test platform the firm gives you access to and did all the questions multiple times haha

Hi! Sorry to ask but was the platform in the email they send the test in? Or do you access it from their website? I’ve looked on their website but struggling to find a practice test.

 

[BonanzaBih_]

Hi! Sorry to ask but was the platform in the email they send the test in? Or do you access it from their website? I’ve looked on their website but struggling to find a practice test.

I got the platform link in the email

 

[Andrei Radu]

can anyone applying to Davis Polk please confirm who we are addressing the cover letter to?

Last year I addressed my cover letter to Davis Polk's training principal. The firm's current UK recruitment partner is Aaron Ferner, so you could address it to him. However, I do not think there will be an issue if you choose to use a more common form of address such as "Dear Graduate Recruitment Team" - especially since the applications are likely to be reviewed by other team members.

 

[Andrei Radu]

Hey all, for VI - when responding to the question 'Why our firm?' I struggle to provide a thorough breakdown of 3 arguments (as I would do in a written response). I think all 3 which I want to mention are important, but I run out of time when trying to provide evidence of research/explanation. In a written response, it's easier to cut down the words/redact and make them fit within the word count.

What structure would you recommend for that question? Should we focus on a number of reasons (if so, are 2 sufficient?)?

Hey @CarolineC just to add my thoughts to @Amma Usman's excellent response: I think you definitely can and in many cases should reduce the number of reasons you discuss - provided that the reasons that you do discuss, when taken into conjunction, suffice to the effect that they do not apply to any other firm to a greater extent. For instance, if say you are applying to Latham, I would say it does not suffice to only mention their PE strength as a reason for why the firm. This is because there are firms such a reason would apply to to an equal or even greater extent, such as Kirkland, Weil, and Simpson Thatcher. As such, you should have at least one additional reason for 'why Latham', such as their culture, global network of offices, and other London practice area strengths.

Now, I know it is quite difficult to fit in everything you want to say when explaining a 'Why firm' reason when you have a 1-2 minutes cap. However, I think with sufficient practice, it should definitely be doable to fit in at least two good reasons. However, for that purpose you may have to slightly reduce the depth of your explanation. I have recently written a post about how you can do this, I have quoted it bellow:

You can then also limit on the depth of explanation of each point. For instance, for a 'why the firm' point, say you would normally go on an elaborated narrative as to how your interest in a given practice area originated, how you went about exploring it, how you then realised what are its substantive features that differentiate it from other practices and also attract you, and then explain who the given firm is a market leader in the practice area and is better than its rivals. Now, considering the time constraints and other questions you have to address, you should instead simply state something like 'The main reason I am attracted to your firm is it's strong X practice area, which is demonstrated by their Chambers and Legal 500 recognition. I am attracted to it because of Y (state distinguishing feature in a few words), as illustrated by Z experience (state the basic subject matter of the experience in a few words)'. This way, you should be able to formulate your point in 15-20 seconds.

 

[Andrei Radu]

Any advice on how to answer why should we hire you as a trainee for a VI?

So the way I interpret this is as a normal 'Why you' question. As such, I would basically follow the same structure as in a written 'Why you' answer:

1. In the introduction, state that there are X number of reasons the firm should hire me.
2. State that Reason 1 is that you have Y relevant skill/attribute. Then explain which experience demonstrates this, using a STAR structure. Finally, explain why Y skill/attribute is actually relevant for a trainee's success.
3. Repeat step 2 for the other skills/attributes
4. In the last 10 seconds, summarize your points and state again that this recommends you for the role.

Now, some points to keep in mind besides this basic structure:

• This being a VI, you want to be very careful with the time limit. Consequently, avoid at all costs the temptation to overcommit in the introduction by stating something like 'I will provide you with 5 reasons' only to then find out you can only properly discuss 2/3. I advise you to experiment with different time limits when practicing beforehand to gauge how many relevant points you can actually discuss. If there is any doubt as you are starting the VI, err on the side of caution and commit yourself to less rather than more. If you find yourself having some extra time at the end, you can also add 'Besides these reasons, another final point that I think is worth mentioning is...'
• To try to set yourself apart from the crowd, you can make your job purposefully more difficult and interpret the question as something like 'Why should we hire you instead of the many other great candidates?'. To answer that, instead of just identifying skills/attributes that are relevant, you should (i) argue that the skills that you possess are particularly important for the job - more so than the many others that are merely relevant; and (ii) argue that you possess those skills at a particularly exceptional level when compared to many other talented candidates.

 

[studentdelaw786]

Last year I addressed my cover letter to Davis Polk's training principal. The firm's current UK recruitment partner is Aaron Ferner, so you could address it to him. However, I do not think there will be an issue if you choose to use a more common form of address such as "Dear Graduate Recruitment Team" - especially since the applications are likely to be reviewed by other team members.

Thank you Andrei. This is helpful advice.

 

[Andrei Radu]

Hi @Ram Sabaratnam @Andrei Radu @Jessica Booker !

I am currently answering a 'Which other firms are you applying to and why? (Max 200 words)' question, and I would appreciate your feedback on my approach. Thank you 😊

I plan to discuss how, as part of my application strategy, I first prioritised firms with strengths in my key areas of interest. I would list the three practice areas I am interested in and outline that each firm I applied to excelled in at least two of them.

I would then discuss how my additional criteria included the DEI initiatives and trainee cohort sizes (linking this to training quality).

Would this approach be ok?


Also, for commercial questions such as 'Discuss a commercial issue that has particularly interested you...', is it ok to discuss a macroeconomic topic such as inflation? Is it a bad idea to do this, or does it depend on how I cover the issue?

Hey @KBanana I think your approach is good but potentially not always optimal. As I see it, it works well as long as the firm you are currently applying to excels in the three practice areas you have identified to a greater or at least equal extent as all the other firms you end up mentioning. If there is any other firm that seems to do better in those areas, this will raise the question like 'why should you not prefer them over us?'.

As such, I used a slightly more tailored approach. I would essentially repeat the underlying two or three motivations for why I was applying to this firm, and would then treat the two three points as firm selection criteria. Then, I would list 2-3 firm that also scored well in every criterion. Since from the beginning these 2-3 criteria would have been selected to best apply to the firm in question, there would be no doubt in the recruiter's mind as to which is the ideal firm for me when they read my 'What other firms have you applied to' answer.

I have analysed this topic in a lot more depth in a recent post about this same question (although in the context of an interview). I have quoted it bellow, as exploring the deeper rationales may be useful to you:

Hi @LLB0711 that is a great question, and I actually have not seen any detailed discussion the topic. I think firms are looking for three main things in a candidate when asking the "what other firms have you applied to question":

1. Knowledge of the legal market: the firm wants to see that you have properly researched the legal market in the City and you know of the different positions and profiles of different firms. Whatever the criteria behind your application strategy (be it practice area or sector strengths, client base, mandates, international offices, size etc), your knowledge of the world of big law will be tested based on your ability to identify the other firms a relevant criterion applies to. This matters to the firm you are interviewing with for two reasons: (a) it evidences a real and constant interest in the world of commercial law, as learning about the different market positions of firms takes time; and (b) it evidences a more genuine interest in their firm, as it shows your application decisions were made from a well-informed perspective.

2. Genuineness of the stated motivations: this brings me to the second point, which is that the firm wants to see whether the reasons you stated for why the firm are genuine. By asking you what other firms you applied to (and potentially the follow-up as to why you chose them) the firm can ascertain the extent to which the underlying motivations behind the 'why the firm' reasons you presented to them also apply to the other choices. For instance, if you were interviewing with Kirkland and mentioned a PE interest as a motivation but then you did not apply to any of the other big names in PE (Latham, Weil, Willkie, Ropes & Gray, Clifford Chance), this might be problematic. Essentially, if the fundamental motivations for the firm cannot be tracked into your wider applications strategy, this could raise doubts as to your sincerity when formulating them. As such, I think most of the examples you list for other firms you applies to should be chosen with a view to being as compatible as possible with your stated motivations for why the firm.

That said, of course you can also be attracted to some different aspects in different firms at the same time while still being genuine. My only two points here are that: (a) there should not be a huge discrepancy in what is attractive to you - at least for most of the firm you list - and (b) that if there is a big motivational discrepancy, in that reasons A B C made you apply for the firm you are now interviewing with and completely different X Y Z reasons made you apply for another firm, you should be prepared to explain why from your point of view reasons A B C are more important and trump reasons X Y Z. Long story short, the outcome you want from this section is to have convinced the interviewer that no other firm scores overall better on a more important relevant set of criteria, which is to say that their firm scores best on your most important set of criteria.

3. Sensible career planning: finally, from my experience firms are also truly interested in whether you are a reflective and sensible person in your career pursuits. As such, you want to demonstrate a nuanced understanding of the pros/cons of different firms, you want the criteria you explain were relevant for you to actually be the type of considerations one can base such an important choice, you want to show you understood the competitive landscape of applications, and that you have pursued the goal of obtaining a TC at a top firm in a consistent and well-planned manner. These are all aspects that evidence you just being a thoughtful and careful person, qualities that are immensely important for a trainee solicitor.

An example of a bad answer that candidates sometimes gave here was to say they only applied for the firm they were interviewing with at the moment. This either showed (i) lack of sufficient awareness of how competitive getting a TC is; (ii) overconfidence; (iii) lack of a sufficiently strong desire to obtain a TC; or (iv) dishonesty in answering an interview question to show oneself as enthusiastic about the firm. As you can appreciate, neither of these disjuncts puts the candidate in a good light.

An example of a better answer here was what I discuessed in a successful VS interview with an elite US firm, which was that I was mainly looking for firms who had (i) strong corporate departments; (ii) gave lots of early responsibility; and (iii) had a smaller trainee intake and office size. I then listed a number of firms in this category (which included the firm I was interviewing at) and explained how I prioritized applying for these firms early in the cycle and how firms in these categories made up for around 60-70% of my applications. Then, I told them how the rest of the 30-40% were split between some larger firms with very good corporate practices (MC or top US) and also a number of more mid-market M&A focused firms (like DLA Piper). I explained how this was due to (a) that while I formed my best possibly informed view on the issue, I was not capable on having a very high degree of certitude as to the which training model and work environment that best suited me - and that as such, I would ideally want to experience a VS in both a larger and in a smaller office and decide on a TC subsequent to that; and (b) in that since my priority goal was to just get a TC from a good firm, taking into account the extreme competitiveness of the process, while I knew my value well enough to mostly apply for what I was most interest in, it made sense to hedge my bets and to not only apply for the most elite of elite firms. When I ended expressing these points, the partner I was speaking to was very impressed and said I had a very sensile approach.

Finally, in choosing how you want to approach constructing your answer you should remember that you likely will not be asked to list every single firm you have applied to. As such, you can pick and choose what examples to mention in a way that best fits your narrative.

 

[andrecsaa]

hi everyone! i got my macfarlanes cappfinity report back - and my low scoring areas was analysis. obvs know it’s hard to draw any definitive conclusions, but do you think this means will likely result in pfo? can’t see myself progressing beyond test stage given how central a trait “analysis” is

I know this feeling. My lowest score was adaptability and right after receiving the results I saw on Macfarlanes's website that they "recruit a diverse range of people who can demonstrate skills such as adaptability, critical thinking, drive, and the ability to build long lasting relationships".

At least one of my strengths was relationship builder, so I calmed down and am waiting for the results.

 

[Gg2001]

Damn, the irwin Mitchell test was sooo long and one vi question caught me off guard😭

(I also think I took more time than advised)

So worried now!!

written test was standard. the scenario VI questions were so hard I didn’t come across them before. At least I did a VI I guess.

 

[Unknowncabbage]

@Amma Usman @Andrei Radu @Ram Sabaratnam

Hi guys, I just wanted a bit of advice on how I could leverage my previous seat in Debt Finance to support the reason I’m interested in the firm (for their banking and finance practice area). This seat was only a day long and I simply just did research tasks and briefed a supervisor.

 

[user9809]

is there actually a VI at the end of Latham & Watkins test? I can’t see much info on that online

 

[Tintin06]

@Amma Usman @Andrei Radu @Ram Sabaratnam

Hi guys, I just wanted a bit of advice on how I could leverage my previous seat in Debt Finance to support the reason I’m interested in the firm (for their banking and finance practice area). This seat was only a day long and I simply just did research tasks and briefed a supervisor.

I guess you could consider similarities. A focus on the clients? Don't play down what you did. Research is important for a trainee. What did you enjoy about it? What skills did you gain? Briefing a supervisor? Communicating complex ideas? Simplifying commercial and legal developments therein? Plenty of ways to spin it.