TCLA Direct Training Contract Applications Discussion Thread 2023-4

[Charlottehollyx]

Out of interest has anyone emailed A&O about not getting a response when they said w/c 4th?

 

[SemperParatus]

anyone else still not heard anything from A&O?

 

[BM99]

anyone else still not heard anything from A&O?

Most of the people who have heard back (on this forum) applied on the deadline, or very close to deadline. Interesting

 

[SemperParatus]

Out of interest has anyone emailed A&O about not getting a response when they said w/c 4th?

Yes and no reply😂

 

[amrita6399]

Most of the people who have heard back (on this forum) applied on the deadline, or very close to deadline. Interesting

Someone on the forum mentioned that last year A&O sent out invites throughout the month. But not sure what's the scene this cycle considering the holiday season is closing in soon.

 

[FutureTS13]

Did the deadline for Skadden pass or is it until 23:59 on the 10th of December?

 

[The6FigureSuccessfulSolicitor]

A&O PFO

I'm very sorry to hear that

 

[Samridhi Jain]

Hi, question for @axelbeugre (feel free to answer if anyone else can too) - "I feel like, especially as a mature student or international student, US firms tend to be more interested in you and your life journey and why you are transitioning in law, recognising your diverse skillset and how it could be useful to them too. So I would encourage you to focus on US firms." - you said this in the latest thread and I wanted to know your experience applying to US firms.

I'm an international student applying from India for TCs in the UK in the penultimate year of my law degree.

Is there any particular advice for US firms? I'm applying to Weil for now, but I'm not sure if I should apply to Goodwin too. I know you're there and wanted to know your experiences!

This is my first cycle but I'm super confused because MC firms keep rejecting me and I have no idea why - I have great legal and non-legal work ex along with lots of legal tech, marketing and starting my own biz experience. Sure, I'm not that great at WGs but I've been good at cracking SJTs.

Just wanted an honest perspective from the forum as well

 

[LB24]

Hi @Jessica Booker, just a quick question about Kennedys if you happen to know the answer. Are you only allowed to apply for one office or can you apply for more than one since the website appears to allow you to submit two applications for e.g. Liverpool and Manchester offices?

 

[laby201]

As a final year law student who just sat a WVS at A&O (ended on the 8th), this sort of attitude is exactly why a lot of you "don't hear back" or get PFOs!

A lot of us who go to "lesser unis" work twice as hard just to be in these rooms and just because we go to "lesser unis" does not mean that we are not as smart, I got A*AA in my A levels and decided to go non-RG so i could experience life outside London in a whole new environment.
A lot of people who got "lesser grades" may have caring responsibilities, mental illnesses, neurodivergencies or may have just had a really bad day. They should not be penalised for circumstances outside of their control.
And lastly, experiences are very hard to come by what with their only being about 5000 training contracts on offer each year but tens of thousands of law graduates and hundreds of thousands of non-law graduates, career changers and international students fighting for those spots. Then add in how people may struggle due to being LGBTQIA+, neurodivergent or BAME and suffer from imposter syndrome.

My whole cohort for the WVS (35 people) have been offered TCs for 2026/2027 and the key thing GR looked for was "personable" traits at A&O, that's why their motto is "Belong. Excel" and Clifford Chance operates similarly as I know many people who had these "lesser" qualities who did their spark schemes and now have TCs with them.

The key to getting a TC is understanding that you are no better than anyone. You are supposed to address the doormen and cleaners with the same amount of respect, courtesy and kindness as you would the senior partners and associates. On my WVS, we were assessed at the end on feedback from everyone at the firm because they want people that they would actually enjoy having to spend 14 hours with a day, not a Russell Group grad who's so holier than thou they can't fathom that someone outside of their elite bubble could be judged as a potential candidate, let alone accepted into the magic circle.

First off, congratulations on your A&O VS and offer; it’s a phenomenal achievement that you should be very proud of.

However, similar to @Untilwinter, I think you’ve missed the point of the post you were replying to. I don’t think anyone on here believes they deserve a spot more than someone else, nor does the calibre of their uni determine whether they’re good enough or not good enough for a TC.

I think what the original poster was getting at is just the continual frustration that comes with rejections, without really knowing why. I’ve been myself. I spent ages researching and writing applications for various firms, and the furthest I got was one assessment centre on my third cycle. Then I had one friend who on their first cycle applied for only 2 firms and managed to get a TC from that. So, I don’t think it’s a case of people working less hard, or thinking they’re better, or not respecting doormen or so forth, it’s just the frustration and confusion of not getting anything when the effort is there.

 

[Samridhi Jain]

Has anyone applied to Weil this cycle or in the past? What would be your top tips for their app?

 

[norothrow324]

So close to emailing GR for AO to ask for an update and an expedited PFO lol …

 

[Jessica Booker]

Hi @Jessica Booker, just a quick question about Kennedys if you happen to know the answer. Are you only allowed to apply for one office or can you apply for more than one since the website appears to allow you to submit two applications for e.g. Liverpool and Manchester offices?

I don’t know the answer to this unfortunately.

 

[Jessica Booker]

Just wanted to chip in on the “what makes a good candidate” conversation.

The first thing to stress is lots of good/strong candidates are unsuccessful. Being a good/strong candidate is not the only factor taken into account though. You can be an exceptional candidate but if the firm isn’t right for you/you aren’t right for the firm because of your personality or career motivations, that is enough to say no. And firms can be making decisions on that very early on in the process.

Firms are investing hundreds of thousands of pounds of money and time into developing you as a trainee. They need to be sure they are going to get that investment back, and therefore being selective is really important to them. Getting it wrong is a pretty big risk to the business. They need their trainees to be a success. Getting hiring wrong cannot only cost you that investment, but it can negatively impact other employees, and you lose the investment in those people too.

But what that success looks like in a trainee actually varies from firm to firm. Just because you have been successful or not in one firm, is not necessarily an indication of the some outcome at another firm even if they are a direct competitor or in the same classification of firm.

Think about it this way - there are loads of people who you could probably have in you closest social circle who would be great people have around. They are probably nice people, who you admire, appreciate, have time for etc. But most people are really selective with who they spend the most of their time with/have within their closest social circle. People choose these friends based on lots of personal preferences that are often quite difficult to define or for other people to understand. You probably don’t have the same criteria as your best friend, despite both of you choosing one another. Recruitment is not too dissimilar to this.

 

[SemperParatus]

Most of the people who have heard back (on this forum) applied on the deadline, or very close to deadline. Interesting

I applied on the deadline lol. I think we should still be cautiously optimistic, its not over til its over👍🏼

 

[hannah04]

Hi @Jessica Booker , I was wondering if you could offer some advice: For "why this firm questions," if there is a very limited word count of 200 words is it okay to just talk thoroughly and specifically about practice areas you're interested in which you tailor to your own interests + experiences without referencing things like culture/cohort size/client base/international opportunities? Or might the answer be too limited in scope if you only talk about practice areas that you're specifically drawn to?

 

[Jessica Booker]

Hi @Jessica Booker , I was wondering if you could offer some advice: For "why this firm questions," if there is a very limited word count of 200 words is it okay to just talk thoroughly and specifically about practice areas you're interested in which you tailor to your own interests + experiences without referencing things like culture/cohort size/client base/international opportunities? Or might the answer be too limited in scope if you only talk about practice areas that you're specifically drawn to?

You’d have to make the practice area content very specific to the firm - for instance, if the content is phrased in a way that can apply to other firms, then this may not be answering the question specifically as to why this firm. It is not that you have to talk about culture, cohort size etc, and you can just talk about the work, but I would try to find unique aspects of the work so the answer is tailored to the firm.

 

[The6FigureSuccessfulSolicitor]

Just wanted to chip in on the “what makes a good candidate” conversation.

The first thing to stress is lots of good/strong candidates are unsuccessful. Being a good/strong candidate is not the only factor taken into account though. You can be an exceptional candidate but if the firm isn’t right for you/you aren’t right for the firm because of your personality or career motivations, that is enough to say no. And firms can be making decisions on that very early on in the process.

Firms are investing hundreds of thousands of pounds of money and time into developing you as a trainee. They need to be sure they are going to get that investment back, and therefore being selective is really important to them. Getting it wrong is a pretty big risk to the business. They need their trainees to be a success. Getting hiring wrong cannot only cost you that investment, but it can negatively impact other employees, and you lose the investment in those people too.

But what that success looks like in a trainee actually varies from firm to firm. Just because you have been successful or not in one firm, is not necessarily an indication of the some outcome at another firm even if they are a direct competitor or in the same classification of firm.

Think about it this way - there are loads of people who you could probably have in you closest social circle who would be great people have around. They are probably nice people, who you admire, appreciate, have time for etc. But most people are really selective with who they spend the most of their time with/have within their closest social circle. People choose these friends based on lots of personal preferences that are often quite difficult to define or for other people to understand. You probably don’t have the same criteria as your best friend, despite both of you choosing one another. Recruitment is not too dissimilar to this.

I completely agree with this and more so at A&O! They care about personality so much that they gave us no tests throughout the entire WVS. They were entirely focused on group activities and socials to see how we interact with one another. At another firm (US probs cos only 4-6 trainees) they may not care as much about collaboration but the magic circle is very focused upon us getting along because we'll be a cohort of 100 trainees (Shearman merger means there will be 100 of us) so GR over there is REALLY focused on personable people, and are open to people of "lesser" grades, "lesser" unis and "lesser" experience to achieve that, and I think that's a truly genuine and kind approach to recruitment. Because, let's be real there are likely tens of thousands of applicants with A*A*A* and first class degrees who have had a form of legal experience and attend Oxbridge/RG unis. Basically, what's meant for you won't pass you and rejection (I had 50 pfos in my first cycle, and this was my 51st ever VS application) is redirection. Every pfo shifted me to this offer so it's all a learning curve to reinforce resilience and it teaches you to practice gratitude. Good luck to everyone!

 

[Jessica Booker]

I completely agree with this and more so at A&O! They care about personality so much that they gave us no tests throughout the entire WVS. They were entirely focused on group activities and socials to see how we interact with one another. At another firm (US probs cos only 4-6 trainees) they may not care as much about collaboration but the magic circle is very focused upon us getting along because we'll be a cohort of 100 trainees (Shearman merger means there will be 100 of us) so GR over there is REALLY focused on personable people, and are open to people of "lesser" grades, "lesser" unis and "lesser" experience to achieve that, and I think that's a truly genuine and kind approach to recruitment. Because, let's be real there are likely tens of thousands of applicants with A*A*A* and first class degrees who have had a form of legal experience and attend Oxbridge/RG unis. Basically, what's meant for you won't pass you and rejection (I had 50 pfos in my first cycle, and this was my 51st ever VS application) is redirection. Every pfo shifted me to this offer so it's all a learning curve to reinforce resilience and it teaches you to practice gratitude. Good luck to everyone!

There are not tens of thousands of people with straight A* and first class degrees applying to training contracts, let alone those who only go to Oxbridge or RG unis. That is one of the biggest myths out there!

 

[SemperParatus]

How long did it take for people who applied to Fieldfisher to receive the Capp test? Thanks