General Discussion Thread 2020-21

[whisperingrock]

Firms only have so much resource. It isn’t feasible to go out to every university - if it was, more firms would do so (although one benefit of covid has meant moving stuff online is much more accessible).

As I have mentioned above, it’s also about the willingness of the student population, careers service and law faculty at those universities too. It’s actually really hard work to work with some universities more so than others, and that stops some firms actively recruiting from those universities as it just isn’t worth the time and hassle.

I don’t think it should push people from other universities away though. There are plenty of other ways to engage with firms than going along to an event at your specific university.

But it does push people away. Why are the non-RG uni students expected to work that much harder to have the confidence to fight their way into top firms, when some Oxford 2nd year gets to go to a college specific event with Slaughter and May? If the answer is, "the Oxford student is more desireable and likely better than a non-RG student" then say that.

Like I get that this is just good business but it really doesn't mesh well with the whole diversity push law firms are doing right now. These sorts of things should be mitigated, not accepted.

 

[JohanGRK]

Depends on the firm and the intake. Can very quite a lot.

But this article may give you can indication across types of firms and regions:

Law firms' preferred universities 2019 - Chambers Student Guide

The student’s guide to careers in the law. Gives the truth about law firms and the Bar. Based on thousands of interviews with trainees, pupils and market sources, this site offers the full package of careers advice to anyone entering the legal profession.

www.chambersstudent.co.uk

What was it for the MC firms you were recruiting for?

I don't think that there are any non-RG graduates in my intake of about 40 (also MC firm). This seems to be pretty common from what my friends are seeing/telling me. Every intake does have people from leading overseas unis but these unis probably don't fall into what people think of when they say non-RG (NULS, NUS, Sydney & Melbourne, etc.)

 

[JohanGRK]

But it does push people away. Why are the non-RG uni students expected to work that much harder to have the confidence to fight their way into top firms, when some Oxford 2nd year gets to go to a college specific event with Slaughter and May? If the answer is, "the Oxford student is more desireable and likely better than a non-RG student" then say that.

Like I get that this is just good business but it really doesn't mesh well with the whole diversity push law firms are doing right now. These sorts of things should be mitigated, not accepted.

If I were to put my academic hat on, I'd say that there are two discourses here. One is about those who are undeserving of marginalisation/exclusion (BAME, people with disabilities, poorer backgrounds, etc). The other is about those who are deserving of it or who are expected to sack up and take personal responsibility for their lives (students from less prestigious universities, students with weaker grades at one point of their life but no obvious mitigating circumstances). Grad rec spend £millions on the former but can't be bothered to even set up anything more exerting than a Zoom call for the latter.

Edit: I think that this conversation applies to the very, very selective firms that have tonnes of Firsts from Oxbridge and other good unis to sift through. Most firms don't seem to be as picky!

 

[whisperingrock]

If I were to put my academic hat on, I'd say that there are two discourses here. One is about those who are undeserving of marginalisation/exclusion (BAME, people with disabilities, poorer backgrounds, etc). The other is about those who are deserving of it or who are expected to sack up and take personal responsibility for their lives (students from less prestigious universities, students with weaker grades at one point of their life but no obvious mitigating circumstances). Grad rec spend £millions on the former but can't be bothered to even set up anything more exerting than a Zoom call for the latter.

To add to this, the simplest way to remove the university barrier in non covid times would be to host larger events that are open to all. Then all the "confident" students in the event city would attend. But no one seems to have thought of that.

 

[Jessica Booker]

But it does push people away. Why are the non-RG uni students expected to work that much harder to have the confidence to fight their way into top firms, when some Oxford 2nd year gets to go to a college specific event with Slaughter and May? If the answer is, "the Oxford student is more desireable and likely better than a non-RG student" then say that.

Like I get that this is just good business but it really doesn't mesh well with the whole diversity push law firms are doing right now. These sorts of things should be mitigated, not accepted.

That isn’t the answer though. The answer is called return on investment.

Spending £2,000 + 2 x a day of people’s time going to Oxford is much more likely to result in a hire than spending that time and money at London Met.

 

[whisperingrock]

That isn’t the answer though. The answer is called return on investment.

Spending £2,000 + 2 x a day of people’s time going to Oxford is much more likely to result in a hire than spending that time and money at London Met.

And that's the whole point. Yes, we all know the Oxford student is better and more desireable, regardless of what words you couch it in. So why all the hypocrisy? Why push it off on the non-RG students? Why preach diversity and equal opportunity when clearly that isn't the case?

 

[Jessica Booker]

To add to this, the simplest way to remove the university barrier in non covid times would be to host larger events that are open to all. Then all the "confident" students in the event city would attend. But no one seems to have thought of that.

These events do happen and have been since at least 2005 when I started out. If you are suggesting that firms only do those large events and don’t go to individual universities, then this just isn’t practical.

How would a student with a very low income or who has caring commitments from Manchester be able to attend an event a large event in London that would cost the best part of a day of their time and several hundred pounds to travel down by train?

 

[Tim Buktu]

That isn’t the answer though. The answer is called return on investment.

Spending £2,000 + 2 x a day of people’s time going to Oxford is much more likely to result in a hire than spending that time and money at London Met.

But doesn't this contribute to perpetuating the lack of diversity that most firms have advertised their commitment to reducing?

 

[whisperingrock]

These events do happen and have been since at least 2005 when I started out. If you are suggesting that firms only do those large events and don’t go to individual universities, then this just isn’t practical.

How would a student with a very low income or who has caring commitments from Manchester be able to attend an event a large event in London that would cost the best part of a day of their time and several hundred pounds to travel down by train?

I said "event city" purposefully to capture that very situation. Firm's also tend to reimburse cost of travel. There are ways around this that firms can and already do for uni specific events. And lets just ignore the fact that a student with a very low income and caring commitments is probably more likely to be at a non-RG university.

 

[Jessica Booker]

And that's the whole point. Yes, we all know the Oxford student is better and more desireable, regardless of what words you couch it in. So why all the hypocrisy? Why push it off on the non-RG students? Why preach diversity and equal opportunity when clearly that isn't the case?

I don’t appreciate the tone here. It isn’t hypocrisy.

An individual Oxford student is not better or desirable just because they went to Oxford.

But collectively you are more likely to find hires from Oxford, because of the population en masse and a variety of factors that contribute to that.

 

[Jessica Booker]

But doesn't this contribute to perpetuating the lack of diversity that most firms have advertised their commitment to reducing?

no - because no firm is only doing one event at one university as their only marketing activity. They have a planned attraction, marketing and event strategy, of which different events/activity will have different objectives.

Even if it was, it’s presumptuous to assume that one lone event isn’t targeted at getting in diverse candidates into the firm just because it is at one university.

 

[Jessica Booker]

I said "event city" purposefully to capture that very situation. Firm's also tend to reimburse cost of travel. There are ways around this that firms can and already do for uni specific events. And lets just ignore the fact that a student with a very low income and caring commitments is probably more likely to be at a non-RG university.

They reimburse travel expenses for interviews and open days but not large scale events.

 

[whisperingrock]

They reimburse travel expenses for interviews and open days but not large scale events.

Hence why you have them in more cities. You are ignoring part of my statement to attack another. All I'm hoping for is a little self reflection here. Sorry I'm not presenting a full pitch of new innovative recruiting events in a two sentence post on a forum.

 

[ab01]

Having had a good browse on LinkedIn, and speaking to candidates who have received TC offers at reputable firms, some have received 2:2s along the way and have received lower a-levels than me and because they went to a Russell Group university they have received TC offers. So do recruiters look at the individual grades or do they look overall at the university as well? Because I have received 9 firsts and 5 high 2.1s on my course, so surely I stand a better chance than a person from Oxbridge or a Russell Group student who achieved 2:2s and say graduated with 64% or below. I feel sometimes it’s not fair because of the university I attended, and it will always come back to the name of the university and not my actual individual grades which are quite strong.

@Jessica Booker

 

[Jessica Booker]

If there is one positive of Covid, it will be how it transforms graduate recruitment. Employers (not just law firms) are starting to realise how successful marketing campaigns can be delivering events online rather than relying on on-campus activity. It’s cheaper, it’s less time intensive, it’s better from a data and reporting perspective, it’s much more accessible etc. We were already seeing the decline in career fair attendance and student society sponsorship, but Covid has accelerated this.

Undoubtedly we will see less campus activity in the future. I can’t see organisations willing to go back to careers fairs for sometime in the same way/volume they did in 2019. That’s going to be great for a number of reasons but mainly where it allows firms to dedicate more time and money towards marketing activity that will reach the best candidates.

But firms are dependent on the set up at universities too. Coming out of milkround this season for an Investment Management company, the digital events that universities ran this year were vastly different. The platforms and technology they used and the ways in which they were promoted to students were vastly different. Would anyone be surprised to hear the best events in terms of functionality were Oxford and Cambridge? While many non-RG unis (and some RGs who are struggling financially) couldn’t afford the technology to run the events in the same successful way.

 

[Jessica Booker]

Hence why you have them in more cities. You are ignoring part of my statement to attack another. All I'm hoping for is a little self reflection here. Sorry I'm not presenting a full pitch of new innovative recruiting events in a two sentence post on a forum.

I’m not attacking anything. I am trying to clarify and justify my position on this.

What would you like me to address that I ignored?

These events do happen already. Manchester’s careers fairs are a prime example where they are open to people from outside of their university.

 

[Jessica Booker]

Having had a good browse on LinkedIn, and speaking to candidates who have received TC offers at reputable firms, some have received 2:2s along the way and have received lower a-levels than me and because they went to a Russell Group university they have received TC offers. So do recruiters look at the individual grades or do they look overall at the university as well? Because I have received 9 firsts and 5 high 2.1s on my course, so surely I stand a better chance than a person from Oxbridge or a Russell Group student who achieved 2:2s and say graduated with 64% or below. I feel sometimes it’s not fair because of the university I attended, and it will always come back to the name of the university and not my actual individual grades which are quite strong.

@Jessica Booker

It is not because they went to a RG university that they got their offer. It’s pretty insulting to anyone who has worked their backside off while studying at a RG university (and by that I don’t just mean academically) to say they secured their TC just because of the university they went to.

Decisions to hire someone are not made by academics alone. So the comparison here doesn’t really work in reality.

 

[Legal_rawn]

Having had a good browse on LinkedIn, and speaking to candidates who have received TC offers at reputable firms, some have received 2:2s along the way and have received lower a-levels than me and because they went to a Russell Group university they have received TC offers. So do recruiters look at the individual grades or do they look overall at the university as well? Because I have received 9 firsts and 5 high 2.1s on my course, so surely I stand a better chance than a person from Oxbridge or a Russell Group student who achieved 2:2s and say graduated with 64% or below. I feel sometimes it’s not fair because of the university I attended, and it will always come back to the name of the university and not my actual individual grades which are quite strong.

@Jessica Booker

For Cambridge the grade is given based on where you rank in the year so it’s a bit different.

 

[ab01]

It is not because they went to a RG university that they got their offer. It’s pretty insulting to anyone who has worked their backside off while studying at a RG university (and by that I don’t just mean academically) to say they secured their TC just because of the university they went to.

Decisions to hire someone are not made by academics alone. So the comparison here doesn’t really work in reality.

Thank you for that, but isn’t it insulting to a non-RG student who got better grades than them? As I thought law firms don’t like 2:2s and I worked my socks off to secure the many firsts I did throughout my course. So am I right in saying they look at individual grades than and not the university?

 

[Jessica Booker]

Thank you for that, but isn’t it insulting to a non-RG student who got better grades than them? As I thought law firms don’t like 2:2s and I worked my socks off to secure the many firsts I did throughout my course. So am I right in saying they look at individual grades than and not the university?

No - because as I said, a decision on an application or to offer someone a job is not made by academics alone.