General Discussion Thread 2020-21

[Tim Buktu]

no - because no firm is only doing one event at one university as their only marketing activity. They have a planned attraction, marketing and event strategy, of which different events will have different objectives.

Even if it was, it’s presumptuous to assume that one lone event isn’t targeted at getting in diverse candidates into the firm.

No, but most firms are doing uni-specific events, and as you explained above, their marketing and event strategy is ROI based, therefore, will focus on RG students.

Non-RG students have access to some events. These events are additional opportunities for RG students that benefit from access to both and enjoy the "confidence-boost" that firms want them (because of their invitation to uni-specific events).

And if one lone event is indeed targeted at getting in diverse candidate into the firm, wouldn't it make sense to target more diverse universities?
Or do minorities become targets only when they attend institutions that would provide a good ROI overall?

I think it's a shame that the disadvantages I face as a non-RG student are broadly accepted as the status quo* yet never acknowledged by grad rec teams. (TCLA is one of the rare platforms that tackled the topic)

*because there isn't a commercial incentive to remedy them

 

[Legal_rawn]

Thank you for that, but isn’t it insulting to a non-RG student who got better grades than them? As I thought law firms don’t like 2:2s and I worked my socks off to secure the many firsts I did throughout my course. So am I right in saying they look at individual grades than and not the university?

I could say the same about the people who have gone to non-RG unis with worse a levels than me that have TC offers when I don’t?

 

[JohanGRK]

For Cambridge the grade is given based on where you rank in the year so it’s a bit different.

This isn't true; they don't employ bell curve marking in the way it's used e.g. in the US. Class lists are something different. All unis have a list of where you place in your cohort, Cambridge is the only one that makes it public-ish.

I am enjoying the back and forth on this thread and am also learning quite a bit, which is sadly all too rare these days :/

 

[whisperingrock]

This isn't true; they don't employ bell curve marking in the way it's used e.g. in the US. Class lists are something different. All unis have a list of where you place in your cohort, Cambridge is the only one that makes it public-ish.

I am enjoying the back and forth on this thread and am also learning quite a bit, which is sadly all too rare these days :/

Lol in the US my first year grades were curved DOWN despite being mid-As by percentage. Gotta love elite unis.

 

[ab01]

I could say the same about the people who have gone to non-RG unis with worse a levels than me that have TC offers when I don’t?

Well then I agree with what @Jessica Booker mentioned that it doesn’t depend on the university name but the individual grading and other stuff like experience. I know many people who went to Cambridge and still are struggling to find a TC.

So from what I have gathered from this thread is - your university doesn’t define you

 

[Legal_rawn]

This isn't true; they don't employ bell curve marking in the way it's used e.g. in the US. Class lists are something different. All unis have a list of where you place in your cohort, Cambridge is the only one that makes it public-ish.

I am enjoying the back and forth on this thread and am also learning quite a bit, which is sadly all too rare these days :/

It is how it works in terms of moderation. The ranking is used to assign grade boundaries (more so than at other units) although this does depend on which college you go to. A 2.2 at Cambridge is a bit different to a 2.2 from somewhere else

 

[JohanGRK]

Lol in the US my first year grades were curved DOWN despite being mid-As by percentage. Gotta love elite unis.

Getting screwed over despite performing better than last year's cohort is one of the reasons why that system is crap. Thankfully, no 'elite' UK uni uses it.

 

[Jessica Booker]

And if one lone event is indeed targeted at getting in diverse candidate into the firm, wouldn't it make sense to target more diverse universities?
Or do minorities become targets only when they attend institutions that would provide a good ROI overall?

I think it's a shame that the disadvantages I face as a non-RG student face are broadly accepted as the status quo* yet never acknowledged by grad rec teams. (TCLA is one of the rare platforms that tackled the topic)

*because there isn't a commercial incentive to remedy the

Ok. Let’s put this into an example about the practicalities here

I want to recruit more BAME candidates and want to do this via a one off event at a university. I am probably going to target The University of Birmingham because they have a higher proportion of BAME students who have BBB or above to get into the university. I also know that historically I get 5-8 times the number of applications from the university, compared to Aston who I could also target who also have strong BAME diversity, but Aston are likely to have a smaller proportion of students who have BBB or above, and so I choose Birmingham. I also choose Birmingham as I have strong existing relationships with the law faculty/careers service/law society that make it easier/cheaper for me to run the event, than if I ran it at Aston. If I am a firm that typically wants ABB or above at A-level, it’s going to be a pretty awkward event if a good proportion of people at the event are not going to be able to apply to the opportunities I have.

The reality is though, if I wanted to target BAME applicants, there would be far more effective ways of doing this than one event at one university.

 

[JohanGRK]

It is how it works in terms of moderation. The ranking is used to assign grade boundaries (more so than at other units) although this does depend on which college you go to. A 2.2 at Cambridge is a bit different to a 2.2 from somewhere else

I'm not getting into a 'my 2.2 is better than your 2.1' kind of discussion. It's cringey when people try to start one.

Re your post:
Moderation =/= the same as what you were implying
Every university does moderation
External moderators are involved in moderation, and these may teach/research at worse unis and thus carry different expectations that also affect the final allocation of grades (including where the threshold is set!)
Most candidates are not on the borderline between grade boundaries

 

[Tim Buktu]

Ok. Let’s put this into an example about the practicalities here

I want to recruit more BAME candidates and want to do this via a one of event at a university. I am probably going to target The University of Birmingham because they have a higher proportion of BAME students who have BBB or above to get into the university. I also know that historically I get 5-8 times the number of applications from the university, compared to Aston who I could also target who also have strong BAME diversity, but Aston are likely to have a smaller proportion of students who have BBB or above, and so I choose Birmingham. I also choose Birmingham as I have strong existing relationships with the law faculty/careers service/law society that make it easier/cheaper for me to run the event, than if I ran it at Aston. If I am a firm that typically wants ABB or above at A-level, it’s going to be a pretty awkward event if a good proportion of people at the event are not going to be able to apply to the opportunities I have.

The reality is though, if I wanted to target BAME applicants, there would be far more effective ways of doing this than one event at one university.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

Wouldn't you agree that overall the balances are tipped against non-RG students? Not because of their course provider directly, but because of fewer opportunities and the feeling of unworthiness linked to that?

 

[Jessica Booker]

Well then I agree with what @Jessica Booker mentioned that it doesn’t depend on the university name but the individual grading and other stuff like experience. I know many people who went to Cambridge and still are struggling to find a TC.

So from what I have gathered from this thread is - your university doesn’t define you

Completely this. Sometimes we get too caught up in simplifying this argument into “RG” and non “RG”. The reality is that there is a whole load of correlation and causation effects that get us to the point that ultimately more RG people get hired by leading law firms than non-RG universities.

Some of those effects are things that Grad Rec can try to resolve. It is why we have seen things like contextualised recruitment and organisations like Aspiring Solicitors become pretty popular.

 

[Jessica Booker]

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

Wouldn't you agree that overall the balances are tipped against non-RG students? Not because of their course provider directly, but because of fewer opportunities and the feeling of unworthiness linked to that?

Yes - if I hadn’t had all my TSR posts deleted a couple of years ago, I’d be able to direct you to posts where I have said non- RG students have a disadvantage in terms of access of opportunity to learn more about law firms and recruitment processes. This isn’t just down to events that law firms run though, it also includes:

- being in a student community that are likely to be less clued up about careers in top law firms

- being in a less “ambitious” student community

- there being fewer alumni networks

- Having less funding into careers advice services, both across the university and within your faculty

(Before anyone jumps on the above, this is a generalisation - some non RG unis invest more into their careers service, some non RG law socs do a fantastic job at ensuring city careers are promoted. Not all RG unis are equal either. Not saying this is the case now, but back in the “old” days it was much easier to recruit from City than it was Leeds because of the relationships on campus and the number of applications received).

 

[Tim Buktu]

Yes - if I hadn’t had all my TSR posts deleted a couple of years ago, I’d be able to direct you to posts where I have said non- RG students have a disadvantage in terms of access of opportunity to learn more about law firms and recruitment processes. This isn’t just down to events that law firms run though, it also includes:

- being in a student community that are likely to be less clued up about careers in top law firms

- being in a less “ambitious” student community

- there being fewer alumni networks

- Having less funding into careers advice services, both across the university and within your faculty

(Before anyone jumps on the above, this is a generalisation - some non RG unis invest more into their careers service, some non RG law socs do a fantastic job at ensuring city careers are promoted. Not all RG unis are equal either. Not saying this is the case now, but back in the “old” days it was much easier to recruit from City than it was Leeds because of the relationships on campus and the number of applications received).

And is this right?

Shall I just accept it?

 

[Jessica Booker]

And is this right?

Shall I just accept it?

No to either.

But every individual has the choice to try and help move it away from that position or sit back and do nothing about it.

One of the easiest ways a individual candidate can contribute to change, is to not allow the current situation from stopping you from applying.

Grad Rec will continue to choose the ways in which they are trying to change the position too. And trust me they are - just because they are doing some events at specific unis, doesn’t mean they aren’t doing other activity elsewhere.

 

[Tim Buktu]

No to either.

But every individual has the choice to try and help move it away from that position or sit back and do nothing about it.

One of the easiest ways a individual candidate can contribute to change, is to not allow the current situation from stopping you from applying.

Grad Rec will continue to choose the ways in which they are trying to change the position too. And trust me they are - just because they are doing some events at specific unis, doesn’t mean they aren’t doing other activity elsewhere.

Thank you for this, and thanks again for all you answers today!

 

[Jessica Booker]

I am on my soapbox now, but these "inequalities" in opportunity was one of the reasons I wanted to join TCLA. This is ultimately eliminating a lot of the obstacles to opportunities where we share information, advise one another, and encourage everyone too. The information and resources that are designed by Jaysen and the team are there to try and make this whole recrutiment process more accessible to everyone, so it doesn't really matter if a firm attends your university or not.

But anyone who is struggling with access to opportunities at their university, I strongly encourage you to try and be part of the change. 10 years ago, a student came up to me at a "open to everyone" event and asked whether I could come to their (very) low ranked university to run an event as "no one came to their campus". There was a bit of luck involved as I had a connection to the university, but it led to me doing a 1 hour skills session on campus, and ultimately that led me the firm recruiting that individual that took the initative later that summer. They are still an associate at the firm now. So I'd encourage you to try and make opportunities. At other unis, someone else is just putting that same work for their students, it just might be the case that they aren't having to be the groundbreaker where the events have run before in previous academic years.

 

[ab01]

I am on my soapbox now, but these "inequalities" in opportunity was one of the reasons I wanted to join TCLA. This is ultimately eliminating a lot of the obstacles to opportunities where we share information, advise one another, and encourage everyone too. The information and resources that are designed by Jaysen and the team are there to try and make this whole recrutiment process more accessible to everyone, so it doesn't really matter if a firm attends your university or not.

But anyone who is struggling with access to opportunities at their university, I strongly encourage you to try and be part of the change. 10 years ago, a student came up to me at a "open to everyone" event and asked whether I could come to their (very) low ranked university to run an event as "no one came to their campus". There was a bit of luck involved as I had a connection to the university, but it led to me doing a 1 hour skills session on campus, and ultimately that led me the firm recruiting that individual that took the initative later that summer. They are still an associate at the firm now. So I'd encourage you to try and make opportunities. At other unis, someone else is just putting that same work for their students, it just might be the case that they aren't having to be the groundbreaker where the events have run before in previous academic years.

Wow this is an amazing success story!

 

[Jacob Miller]

Really interesting discussion to this point, I feel like I should maybe chuck my hat into the ring here - at the risk, perhaps, of it being somewhat unpopular.

For perspective: I've got not-spectacular A-level equivalents (141 UCAS points, so somewhere between A*AB and AAB) from a decent-ish Glasgow state school. I am included in multiple contextual recruitment/ under-represented groups. I attend a non-RG Uni (Aberdeen, which is in the far north of Scotland) and I'm on track for a 2.1. For those who don't know, I secured a TC with Travers Smith on essentially my first app cycle.

Do I think that some firms err towards RG/ especially Oxbridge candidates? Yes, absolutely. Do I believe this is every firm? No, I don't. Do I believe it's due to recruiters having a silver spoon stuck somewhere unpleasant turning their nose up at candidates from anywhere else? No, don't be ridiculous.

I think that, as prospective applicants, there is a tendency (which I myself was guilty of, by the way) of forgetting that law firms are businesses in and of themselves, who need to make cost-benefit analyses of every decision they take and also want the absolute best talent because they want to make the most competitive offering to their clients, to make more money in turn. To that end, firms are obviously going to target universities which have a statistically higher proportion of candidates who will tick the boxes for that firm. You also have to consider geography here: Aberdeen, for example, is a nightmare to get to and travel costs an absolute fortune. In spite of the fact it's generally considered a top-10 UK law school, it's simply not practical for most firms to attend because they can get a higher proportion of statistically better candidates for a much lower investment cost elsewhere. It's a no-brainer for a business to make that decision. One of the massive strong-points of this forum is that it is a resource to find frank and honest advice, I think @Jessica Booker would be doing everyone here a disservice if she gave some political/ smoke and mirrors excuse for the situation as it currently is... I totally get that it might be a bit unpleasant to hear said plainly, but let's not shoot the messenger.

Whether it's right or wrong (and, hey, I agree that it is wrong), pragmatism is necessary here. I remember someone telling me once that "it's infinitely easier to effect change from the inside of the tent peeing out, than the outside of the tent peeing in". You'll not change the world by shouting about it, but by putting yourself in a position where you can do it.

Myself and countless others from backgrounds such as mine are literally living proof that it's possible and the additional challenges mean little in practice if you really work at it. I think simply 'blaming the system' and resigning oneself to not achieving what you want is a total cop-out. I'm one of the most passionate people you could meet about improving the diversity in the commercial legal industry - hence, for example, I do what I do here, have attended video networking panels etc - and improving the disparity in legal recruitment is something which I fully plan on being a part of through my career. But, at that point, I'll be in the tent peeing out. Work hard, keep pushing and then, when you're in the tent, pee out and actually effect change.

Edit: Just for clarification, I don't at all disagree with people who say that non-RG/ Oxbridge/ XYZ groups are still fighting an uphill battle- I completely agree with this and it's totally wrong- I'm just saying that the best way to change it is to put yourself in a position where you can do so

 

[Jessica Booker]

What was it for the MC firms you were recruiting for?

I don't think that there are any non-RG graduates in my intake of about 40 (also MC firm). This seems to be pretty common from what my friends are seeing/telling me. Every intake does have people from leading overseas unis but these unis probably don't fall into what people think of when they say non-RG (NULS, NUS, Sydney & Melbourne, etc.)

Yes - apart from the first MC firm that I left in 2006, I recruited enough non-RG grad consistently across intakes for me confidently say it wasn’t an anomaly.

Maybe things have gone backwards since I have left? (doubt it going by what I see on LinkedIn though).

Just some of the non RG unis I have recruited from (tried to do this geographically):

Essex
Sussex
Kent
SOAS
City
Birkbeck
Royal Holloway
Kingston
Aston
Leicester
Loughborough
UAE
Lancaster
Staffordshire
Northumbria
Open University

(and then obviously the likes of Bath and St Andrews too that are non RG but probably are more highly ranked than some RG unis)

And those are just those that immediately come to mind - I suspect there are more if I thought about it carefully or had the data in front of me.

 

[JohanGRK]

Yes - apart from the first MC firm that I left in 2006, I recruited enough non-RG grad consistently across intakes for me confidently say it wasn’t an anomaly.

Maybe things have gone backwards since I have left? (doubt it going by what I see on LinkedIn though).

Might be the firm/intake or pure chance. I did just realise that we have a St.A's History grad but I don't think that that counts?

What were the actual numbers though?

I see a lot of SOAS/Surrey/whatever success stories out there on Linkedin but I can't help but think that these blow things out of proportion slightly, precisely because these people have overachieved in the context of their background, and either want to blow their trumpet or inspire others. If I went off what I saw on LinkedIn, everyone training at a leading firm is either the first generation of their parents to go to uni, ticks off 5 or 6 diversity characteristics, or is a former elite athlete!