General Discussion Thread 2020-21

[nymi]

Just now?

Yeah, that’s right !

 

[Jessica Booker]

Guys does someone have any tips or a rough format for written case studies. I have practiced the ones available on TCLA, however other than following the vague advice on providing pros and cons and being organised/concise, I am still not sure I have grasped the correct format. I guess what Im trying to ask is:

1. does the report/email have to be one page only? (assuming there is no limit stated anywhere)
2. How would you juggle giving advice on 2 decisions that need to be made ( in TCLA exercise you only had to advise on one decision but I have heard some firms asking for decisions/advice to be given on 2 things)-- how should you apply the pros and cons technique without essentially making a mess of the format and keeping under time?

Any other specific advice would be great!

My advice is not to try and practice or think about this too rigidly. Rather than thinking about very specific concerns like how long it should be (you may get some guidance on this when you get the instructions or the content of the exercise may make this variable), just focus your practice on analysing information and making decisions from there. The amount of time you may spend on two decisions could also vary, depending on what they are and whether they are linked.

It’s this type of thinking I try to get people to avoid. You end up getting a bit tunnel visioned, and when you turn up and the exercise is slightly different, you can either get thrown by it or worse you can stick rigidly to what you think is the “right” way to respond which may not be the best way to actually tackle the task.

 

[tractor12]

Yeah, just got a rejection from dentons post app

Sorry to hear! When did you apply?

 

[nymi]

Sorry to hear! When did you apply?

I applied 2 days before the deadline

 

[Lr1]

It’s a bit of a tricky one. I have spoke to a few university who have confirmed that I can. It would be odd but what it kinda does is remove the stigma of not having good grades throughout. I am already doing an LLM at durham and have basically averaged 69.1.. a very good disso first will allow me to graduate with a first. (I also never did A-levels cause I’m international) .. so in theory, what I am trying to do is prove that I am academically capable. If I can get another first on the senior status and a first class LLM, I can’t see how I would not be regarded as academically excellent. Therefore that might make it easier for firms to consider my application.

I really don't think redoing your LLB will make a difference, it's actually a really odd thing to do and I've literally never heard of someone doing it. You may have not done A-Levels but you must have done an international equivalent. The senior status LLB and even more so, the BCL, are both really, really difficult, esp. at Oxford. Harder than the 3 year undegrad BA in Law that Oxford offers. I think you need to do the LNAT for the LLB at Oxford too and get a really high score.

Need to be frank here, people don't apply/do to these courses to overcome previous academic issues, they do it to make themselves even more competitive than they already are. You can look at the classes of people that do the BCL at Oxford, the university produces a document on them and the academic background and basic profile of everyone on the course. Simply put, they are all excellent students, period.

 

[Jessica Booker]

And you will too! I know what’s probably holding me back though. It’s definitely my grades at this point despite my mitigating circumstances. I think I’m going to look into perhaps an senior status LLB , because my normal LLB grades are poor. Cause I know firms won’t care too much if my LLM grades are a lot better

you won’t be able to do a senior status LLB if you already hold an English law degree

 

[Jessica Booker]

It’s a bit of a tricky one. I have spoke to a few university who have confirmed that I can. It would be odd but what it kinda does is remove the stigma of not having good grades throughout. I am already doing an LLM at durham and have basically averaged 69.1.. a very good disso first will allow me to graduate with a first. (I also never did A-levels cause I’m international) .. so in theory, what I am trying to do is prove that I am academically capable. If I can get another first on the senior status and a first class LLM, I can’t see how I would not be regarded as academically excellent. Therefore that might make it easier for firms to consider my application.

it doesn’t remove that “stigma” at all unfortunately - you still have to provide those grades.

I wouldn’t recommend doing a senior status LLB. Law firms won’t just by-pass your first degree results, and unfortunately will think the senior status LLB grades aren’t as convincing where many of them will technically be a second sitting.

In my 15 years of doing this, I have never seen anyone go from an UG LLB to a SS LLB. There is absolutely no logic in this, especially if you have an LLM too.

 

[jan28]

Need to be frank here

I'm not sure why you're fixated on Oxford? If I'm not wrong @Mofin hasn't even mentioned doing the senior status LLB, nor the BCL at Oxford and that he/she spoke to different unis. I'm not too educated on senior status LLBs but you don't need to repeatedly mention how difficult it will be lol, because duh.

*Jessica has just responded by saying you need a non-law undegrad for a senior status LLB so granted it's not possible on factual grounds, not because of its difficulty.

 

[Jessica Booker]

I'm not sure why you're fixated on Oxford? If I'm not wrong @Mofin hasn't even mentioned doing the senior status LLB, nor the BCL at Oxford and that he/she spoke to different unis. I'm not too educated on senior status LLBs but you don't need to repeatedly mention how difficult it will be lol, because duh.

*Jessica has just responded by saying you need a non-law undegrad for a senior status LLB so granted it's not possible on factual grounds, not because of its difficulty.

that’s not what I said

 

[jan28]

that’s not what I said

Sorry, I understood the following response as Mofin not being able to do the SS because he/she already has an English law degree, so they would need a non-law degree?

you won’t be able to do a senior status LLB if you already hold an English law degree

But I also get that it's not wise to do it for the reasons Mofin has stated. I just found it odd to discourage someone from doing it on the basis that it will be difficult and others that are doing it are academically excellent, which is a given anyway, as well as the fixation on a particular university.

 

[Lr1]

Sorry, I understood the following response as him not being able to do the SS because he already has an English law degree, so he would need a non-law degree?



But I also get that it's not wise to do it for the reasons Mofin has stated. I just found it odd to discourage someone from doing it on the basis that it will be difficult and others that are doing it are academically excellent, which is a given anyway.

Sorry, I don't want to create a whole drama about this. I just tried to help/advise. Apologies.

 

[Jessica Booker]

Sorry, I understood the following response as Mofin not being able to do the SS because he/she already has an English law degree, so they would need a non-law degree?



But I also get that it's not wise to do it for the reasons Mofin has stated. I just found it odd to discourage someone from doing it on the basis that it will be difficult and others that are doing it are academically excellent, which is a given anyway.

Things are all getting a bit muddled here but I think the point about it being academically tough was specifically for the BCL at Oxford that was mentioned (not sure why this was brought in though).

Generally most people on the BCL are people who have worked in industry for many years or those people are who are crazy academic types (top of class, lots of academic ECs). The BCL isn’t cheap either, especially for an international student.

I am not convinced it is academics that are necessarily the issue here (given the reference to strong LLM grades and mit circs). Even if they were, doing a SS LLB wouldn’t stop that issue.

 

[jan28]

Things are all getting a bit muddled here but I think the point about it being academically tough was specifically for the BCL at Oxford that was mentioned (not sure why this was brought in though).

Generally most people on the BCL are people who have worked in industry for many years or those people are who are crazy academic types (top of class, lots of academic ECs). The BCL isn’t cheap either, especially for an international student.

I am not convinced it is academics that are necessarily the issue here (given the reference to strong LLM grades and mit circs). Even if they were, doing a SS LLB wouldn’t stop that issue.

Yes agree with everything - you just need to look at people that have done the BCL on LinkedIn to see the calibre of those that do it. My point was just @Lr1 kept mentioning the SS and BCL specifically at Oxford and how difficult it is, which I didn't get.

Maybe I'm also making a mountain out of a molehill, apologies if so

 

[Anthony Abloh]

And you will too! I know what’s probably holding me back though. It’s definitely my grades at this point despite my mitigating circumstances. I think I’m going to look into perhaps an senior status LLB , because my normal LLB grades are poor. Cause I know firms won’t care too much if my LLM grades are a lot better

You shouldn't be disheartened because of bad grades, I have come across several people who don't have the best grades, who are at top City firms. However, I don't think further education is the answer here, all of the people that I just mentioned made up for their poor grades with excellent work experience. I am not sure what experience you have, so I am going to speak as if you don't have any of the following, so my apologies if you do. Look into paralegal experience/ legal executive work at corporate firms, look at in house legal internships, volunteer at Citizens Advice (not all your experience has to be corporate law related nor does your corporate experience have to be at the best firms) then work your way up to the open days and vacation schemes at City firms. From everyone that I have spoken to at these top City firms, one thing that is clear is that you are much better served spending the time that you would spend in further education, accumulating as much work experience as possible.

 

[LegalNim]

Has anyone heard back post-app from: Dentons, Freshfields, Boodle Hatfield, DWF, Gibson Dunn or Macfarlanes? All for direct TC. I know the deadlines haven't passed yet for some of these.

 

[smith363]

Has anyone heard back post-app from: Dentons, Freshfields, Boodle Hatfield, DWF, Gibson Dunn or Macfarlanes? All for direct TC. I know the deadlines haven't passed yet for some of these.

I haven’t heard from DWF either

 

[Pallatablelawyer]

Sorry, I don't want to create a whole drama about this. I just tried to help/advise. Apologies.

Things are all getting a bit muddled here but I think the point about it being academically tough was specifically for the BCL at Oxford that was mentioned (not sure why this was brought in though).

Generally most people on the BCL are people who have worked in industry for many years or those people are who are crazy academic types (top of class, lots of academic ECs). The BCL isn’t cheap either, especially for an international student.

I am not convinced it is academics that are necessarily the issue here (given the reference to strong LLM grades and mit circs). Even if they were, doing a SS LLB wouldn’t stop that issue.

@R19 @Jessica Booker @Lr1 @Anthony Abloh
First of all, I am so sorry for the confusion it seems I have caused. LR1, I don’t think I mentioned the BCL but if I did I am terribly sorry. I think I might survive the BCL nevertheless.

The main issue with mitig circumstances here is that, it seems to be hard to overcome because of two 40s and a good few 2:2s. My first and second year averages were 50 & 58, 3rd year was 64. The mitig circumstances affected all 3. However, by the time you study law without lectures, lecturers and uni resources for two years, you get the hang of it. (This is my mitig circumstances btw.. I wasn’t allowed to go lectures, speak to lecturers etc because my home economy crashed and my parents couldn’t afford tuition.. I was allowed to write essays and exams though.. just not learn w the facilities provided by the uni.. also my grandfather & uncle died in my final year) On my LLM, the mitig circumstances aren’t there anymore and I’m averaging 69.1. That’s basically the context and I thought that maybe if I did a few more academic years it will prove I am capable of academics are the drawback. Thanks for clearing that up though Jessica, I just thought strong academics on the senior status would change things. Nevertheless, it’s really good to know.

Anthony, I have looked into work experience, and because I am international, no one currently wants to hire me with 6 months left on the visa. I am however currently planning to get another visa which if it works should allow me to stay here for another two years so maybe if I get solid work experience within that time. Furthermore just for context, I got a us firm vac scheme this year which got turned into a 2 day virtual scheme cause of covid (I might still get called back for an in-person scheme if they identify me as one of the good candidates on the virtual scheme) and I have had an interview with another us firm(but I didn’t do well) . However, that was after an application round of at least 30 firms this cycle. Believe me, I would like to apply to just 10 or something but with my grades and my circumstances, I have to got to apply to as many as possible and focus on making as many good apps as possible. If I was a student with decent grades and I knew I had a fair shot I would but I really can’t. Nevertheless I will keep trying to beef up that work experience with anything I can find.

sorry for the long post & confusion and any grammar errors that are on here!

 

[LegalNim]

two 40s and a good few 2:2s. My first and second year averages were 50 & 58, 3rd year was 64. !

My grades aren't much higher than yours to be honest and I've secured vacation scheme and assessment centres (including with a Magic Circle firm). It's tough because it's really hard to ever know why we get rejected when we get rejected. I think you just need to work on everything else as much as you can - focus on your strengths rather than your weakness. In my applications, I completely own that my academics aren't up to par but just point out that they aren't looking for an academic and, quite frankly, I've learnt a hell of a lot more working for a criminal law firm for free than I would have from studying a criminal law module and getting a first (for example).
I also don't know how much mitigating circumstances come into it, I'm disabled and was hospitalised a lot throughout my degree (sometimes for months at a time). Honestly, just try your best, stick at it and focus on your strengths - that all the advice I can really give you.

 

[Pallatablelawyer]

My grades aren't much higher than yours to be honest and I've secured vacation scheme and assessment centres (including with a Magic Circle firm). It's tough because it's really hard to ever know why we get rejected when we get rejected. I think you just need to work on everything else as much as you can - focus on your strengths rather than your weakness. In my applications, I completely own that my academics aren't up to par but just point out that they aren't looking for an academic and, quite frankly, I've learnt a hell of a lot more working for a criminal law firm for free than I would have from studying a criminal law module and getting a first (for example).
I also don't know how much mitigating circumstances come into it, I'm disabled and was hospitalised a lot throughout my degree (sometimes for months at a time). Honestly, just try your best, stick at it and focus on your strengths - that all the advice I can really give you.

Woow, thank you so much I really appreciate that. You have achieved so much despite everything

 

[Lr1]

@R19 @Jessica Booker @Lr1 @Anthony Abloh
First of all, I am so sorry for the confusion it seems I have caused. LR1, I don’t think I mentioned the BCL but if I did I am terribly sorry. I think I might survive the BCL nevertheless.

The main issue with mitig circumstances here is that, it seems to be hard to overcome because of two 40s and a good few 2:2s. My first and second year averages were 50 & 58, 3rd year was 64. The mitig circumstances affected all 3. However, by the time you study law without lectures, lecturers and uni resources for two years, you get the hang of it. (This is my mitig circumstances btw.. I wasn’t allowed to go lectures, speak to lecturers etc because my home economy crashed and my parents couldn’t afford tuition.. I was allowed to write essays and exams though.. just not learn w the facilities provided by the uni.. also my grandfather & uncle died in my final year) On my LLM, the mitig circumstances aren’t there anymore and I’m averaging 69.1. That’s basically the context and I thought that maybe if I did a few more academic years it will prove I am capable of academics are the drawback. Thanks for clearing that up though Jessica, I just thought strong academics on the senior status would change things. Nevertheless, it’s really good to know.

Anthony, I have looked into work experience, and because I am international, no one currently wants to hire me with 6 months left on the visa. I am however currently planning to get another visa which if it works should allow me to stay here for another two years so maybe if I get solid work experience within that time. Furthermore just for context, I got a us firm vac scheme this year which got turned into a 2 day virtual scheme cause of covid (I might still get called back for an in-person scheme if they identify me as one of the good candidates on the virtual scheme) and I have had an interview with another us firm(but I didn’t do well) . However, that was after an application round of at least 30 firms this cycle. Believe me, I would like to apply to just 10 or something but with my grades and my circumstances, I have to got to apply to as many as possible and focus on making as many good apps as possible. If I was a student with decent grades and I knew I had a fair shot I would but I really can’t. Nevertheless I will keep trying to beef up that work experience with anything I can find.

sorry for the long post & confusion and any grammar errors that are on here!

It's my error, sorry Mofin. I was talking to someone else about the BCL at the same time and here we are! Anyway, you're clearly doing something right- you got a vac scheme and an interview. Getting a TC is just difficult, it might be that you haven't nailed it this time, but will the next. Good luck!