General Discussion Thread 2020-21

[D95]

Sorry if not clear. I meant once they have offered, albeit conditional, can they withdraw an offer? Meaning can they turn round and say “sorry we need to cut trainee places so your offer is withdrawn.”

It all goes back to the basic principles of the employment law really, i.e. if the job is offered and subsequently accepted by the candidate, then it constitutes a legally binding contract. Any withdrawal after this stage would be a breach and allow for some sort of damages and/or compensation (especially if the offer was unconditional).

 

[SG]

Shearman just published some useful tips for things to do during this uncertain time. It could help all of us:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/appl...xEz42MiNuWVHq9fZTY_hcvHEaCuf6ZX0xE-X8WYhm4IsA

 

[csyn]

Is anyone waiting to hear back from Sidley Austin & Stephenson Harwood after the application form?

Yes! I am waiting for Stephenson Harwood still, and applied a day before the deadline - what about you?

 

[csyn]

Is anyone here familiar with the firm Curtis by the way?

 

[Jessica Booker]

I meant right now. Between them offering, me accepting and them confirming.

If your offer is for two to three years time, don't worry. I'd only be concerned if your training contract offer was to start in the next 9 months

 

[Jessica Booker]

How likely is it that firms will cut down the number of trainees they take on/not take anyone at all this year? Trying to gauge our chances of being employed this cycle...

EVERYONE NEEDS TO CALLLLLMMMMMMMMMMM DOWN!!!

Law firms are typically recruiting 2-3 years in advance. Unless you are looking to start a training contract in the next 6-9 months, you have very little to worry about.

 

[Jessica Booker]

How likely is it that firms will cut down the number of trainees they take on/not take anyone at all this year? Trying to gauge our chances of being employed this cycle...

Most commercial firms are not currently recruiting for this year, they are recruiting for 2022/2023.

Even those firms that are recruiting intakes for 2020-21, need trainees in 2022-23 and will need qualified lawyers from 2023 onwards.

 

[Bugsy Malone]

Mishcon vacation scheme offer! Totally over the moon, this is my first offer and second cycle applying. Thanks everyone for your tips along the way

 

[Jessica Booker]

Ok guys.... here's my take on things. It is just my view/opinion and not based on any scientific knowledge!

Pretty much everything is going to be on hold for somewhere between the next 12 weeks up to possibly up until September. Things will pick up by September even if we are still in a situation of people having to deal with Covid-19. We just need time to adapt and that may take some months to do so.

So why September? Well, the summer is typically a quieter time for law firms anyway - things tend to pick up between September and December in a normal year anyway, and if things have been so quiet for so long, there will come a point where things need to actually be actioned/changed.

Also firms tend to pick up work when "the sh*t hits the fan" - and this time it's hit that fan in spectacular fashion. There will be work lawyers have to do with restructures/insolvencies/litigation - all that will be driven by these unprecedented circumstances. If they were kept busy on some level in 2008/09, they will be kept busy now! As they also adapt to working more remotely, normal processes will slow down which means they will need more man power at times.

Also hiring trainees is a lot cheaper than associates. If anyone has more grounds to worry, it will be those who are currently employed and potentially facing redundancies. Restructures/redundancies happened a lot more in 2008/09 than firms completely pulling out of recruiting trainees. Where this did happen, firms were typically going bust. Also people due to qualify in the next 12 months probably are the most at risk as they have no rights to redundancy. I doubt many people will get a bonus in the next 12 months....

As mentioned above, firms are typically recruiting two to three years in advance. Back in 2008/09 when the financial crisis hit, the impact was more on the immediate TC start dates, when they looked to defer trainees from one intake to the next year (e.g. I asked for people to defer from 2009 to 2010, and 2010 to 2011). However not all trainees were deferred, it was only ever a proportion of the intake - typically less than 20%. Even when this was done, it was predominately voluntary - and some people were rewarded financially for taking that voluntary option. If deferrals did happen again this may mean that there are slightly fewer vacancies available for the intakes you are currently applying to - but to be frank about this, it will be nothing compared to some other industries where demands for graduates will drop dramatically. There is also a question as to whether people will choose to defer given the move to the SQE!

So what does this mean for you as potential applicants?

• Don't expect firms to come to immediate decisions on individual applications pre final round interview stage - you are really going to need to be patient and wait this out. Many people haven't got an answer themselves, let alone an answer to give you
• Internships and assessment centres/interview could be cancelled/postponed given the travel restrictions and where people are out of the office - when these are lifted, its likely things will return to normal and fairly quickly

My advice to you:

• The Shearman article linked above is a good one - there is lots of good advice in there
• Look for ways to engage people online - the biggest impact I see is that this could fundamentally change how employers engage on campus, not just for the short-term but also longer term too.
• Check in with one another - these forums although great, they can be faceless and you don't necessarily know everyone's intentions. While we are all more isolated, talk to one another, keep each other's spirits up rather than down

As of next week, I am potentially going to have an awful lot of time on my hands (my trip to Bali is now definitely off ) so I will have a think about how I can best support you all going forward. If anyone has any ideas on how I can help to reduce the group's worrying/anxiety, I'd like to hear them!

 

[J32]

Ok guys.... here's my take on things. It is just my view/opinion and not based on any scientific knowledge!

Pretty much everything is going to be on hold for somewhere between the next 12 weeks up to possibly up until September. Things will pick up by September even if we are still in a situation of people having to deal with Covid-19. We just need time to adapt and that may take some months to do so.

So why September? Well, the summer is typically a quieter time for law firms anyway - things tend to pick up between September and December in a normal year anyway, and if things have been so quiet for so long, there will come a point where things need to actually be actioned/changed.

Also firms tend to pick up work when "the sh*t hits the fan" - and this time it's hit that fan in spectacular fashion. There will be work lawyers have to do with restructures/insolvencies/litigation - all that will be driven by these unprecedented circumstances. If they were kept busy on some level in 2008/09, they will be kept busy now! As they also adapt to working more remotely, normal processes will slow down which means they will need more man power at times.

Also hiring trainees is a lot cheaper than associates. If anyone has more grounds to worry, it will be those who are currently employed and potentially facing redundancies. Restructures/redundancies happened a lot more in 2008/09 than firms completely pulling out of recruiting trainees. Where this did happen, firms were typically going bust. Also people due to qualify in the next 12 months probably are the most at risk as they have no rights to redundancy....

As mentioned above, firms are typically recruiting two to three years in advance. Back in 2008/09 when the financial crisis hit, the impact was more on the immediate TC start dates, when they looked to defer trainees from one intake to the next year (e.g. I asked for people to defer from 2009 to 2010, and 2010 to 2011). However not all trainees were deferred, it was only ever a proportion of the intake - typically less than 20%. Even when this was done, it was predominately voluntary - and some people were rewarded financially for taking that voluntary option. If deferrals did happen again this may mean that there are slightly fewer vacancies available for the intakes you are currently applying to - but to be frank about this, it will be nothing compared to some other industries where demands for graduates will drop dramatically. There is also a question as to whether people will choose to defer given the move to the SQE!

So what does this mean for you as potential applicants?

• Don't expect firms to come to immediate decisions on individual applications pre final round interview stage - you are really going to need to be patient and wait this out. Many people haven't got an answer themselves, let alone an answer to give you
• Internships and assessment centres/interview could be cancelled/postponed given the travel restrictions and where people are out of the office - when these are lifted, its likely things will return to normal and fairly quickly

My advice to you:

• The Shearman article linked above is a good one - there is lots of good advice in there
• Look for ways to engage people online - the biggest impact I see is that this could fundamentally change how employers engage on campus, not just for the short-term but also longer term too.
• Check in with one another - these forums although great, they can be faceless and you don't necessarily know everyone's intentions. While we are all more isolated, talk to one another, keep each other's spirits up rather than down

As of next week, I am potentially going to have an awful lot of time on my hands (my trip to Bali is now definitely off ) so I will have a think about how I can best support you all going forward. If anyone has any ideas on how I can help to reduce the group's worrying/anxiety, I'd like to hear them!

Thank you for this Jessica, your post provides everyone with much needed clarity/ calmness as to why the next few months will be uncertain regarding apps/ TCs etc

 

[Jessica Booker]

Mishcon vacation scheme offer! Totally over the moon, this is my first offer and second cycle applying. Thanks everyone for your tips along the way

Just shows there is some business as usual positive news to celebrate - congratulations!!

 

[Bugsy Malone]

Just shows there is some business as usual positive news to celebrate - congratulations!!

Thanks Jessica

 

[Alice G]

Mishcon vacation scheme offer! Totally over the moon, this is my first offer and second cycle applying. Thanks everyone for your tips along the way

Aw Flora, I’m so happy to be reading this I can’t even tell you. You always push so hard and persevere and seek to take everything on board! I’m beaming so much for you, congratulations, and it’s so well deserved!

 

[WMA]

Hey guys, just to let you know, Gateley have postponed their AC until further notice

 

[yahyee96]

Is anyone still waiting for BCLP post-app? I applied on 1 Jan when their deadline was 19 Jan, so surpised I haven't at least gotten an official rejection.

 

[Jay-Lo]

Is anyone waiting to hear back from White & Case post-VI? I did it 2 weeks ago...

 

[Jaysen]

Mishcon vacation scheme offer! Totally over the moon, this is my first offer and second cycle applying. Thanks everyone for your tips along the way

Really happy for you Flora, well done!

 

[Jaysen]

Ok guys.... here's my take on things. It is just my view/opinion and not based on any scientific knowledge!

Pretty much everything is going to be on hold for somewhere between the next 12 weeks up to possibly up until September. Things will pick up by September even if we are still in a situation of people having to deal with Covid-19. We just need time to adapt and that may take some months to do so.

So why September? Well, the summer is typically a quieter time for law firms anyway - things tend to pick up between September and December in a normal year anyway, and if things have been so quiet for so long, there will come a point where things need to actually be actioned/changed.

Also firms tend to pick up work when "the sh*t hits the fan" - and this time it's hit that fan in spectacular fashion. There will be work lawyers have to do with restructures/insolvencies/litigation - all that will be driven by these unprecedented circumstances. If they were kept busy on some level in 2008/09, they will be kept busy now! As they also adapt to working more remotely, normal processes will slow down which means they will need more man power at times.

Also hiring trainees is a lot cheaper than associates. If anyone has more grounds to worry, it will be those who are currently employed and potentially facing redundancies. Restructures/redundancies happened a lot more in 2008/09 than firms completely pulling out of recruiting trainees. Where this did happen, firms were typically going bust. Also people due to qualify in the next 12 months probably are the most at risk as they have no rights to redundancy. I doubt many people will get a bonus in the next 12 months....

As mentioned above, firms are typically recruiting two to three years in advance. Back in 2008/09 when the financial crisis hit, the impact was more on the immediate TC start dates, when they looked to defer trainees from one intake to the next year (e.g. I asked for people to defer from 2009 to 2010, and 2010 to 2011). However not all trainees were deferred, it was only ever a proportion of the intake - typically less than 20%. Even when this was done, it was predominately voluntary - and some people were rewarded financially for taking that voluntary option. If deferrals did happen again this may mean that there are slightly fewer vacancies available for the intakes you are currently applying to - but to be frank about this, it will be nothing compared to some other industries where demands for graduates will drop dramatically. There is also a question as to whether people will choose to defer given the move to the SQE!

So what does this mean for you as potential applicants?

• Don't expect firms to come to immediate decisions on individual applications pre final round interview stage - you are really going to need to be patient and wait this out. Many people haven't got an answer themselves, let alone an answer to give you
• Internships and assessment centres/interview could be cancelled/postponed given the travel restrictions and where people are out of the office - when these are lifted, its likely things will return to normal and fairly quickly

My advice to you:

• The Shearman article linked above is a good one - there is lots of good advice in there
• Look for ways to engage people online - the biggest impact I see is that this could fundamentally change how employers engage on campus, not just for the short-term but also longer term too.
• Check in with one another - these forums although great, they can be faceless and you don't necessarily know everyone's intentions. While we are all more isolated, talk to one another, keep each other's spirits up rather than down

As of next week, I am potentially going to have an awful lot of time on my hands (my trip to Bali is now definitely off ) so I will have a think about how I can best support you all going forward. If anyone has any ideas on how I can help to reduce the group's worrying/anxiety, I'd like to hear them!

Hey guys,

Just to reiterate the above - I know this period is horrible and we're thinking about what we can do to help you guys during this very uncertain period. My current Tuesday office hours will now take place via phone/Skype, but I'll see if we can open up more slots in case any of you need to talk things through. In the meantime, if anyone has any suggestions, feel free to share .

 

[W]

Does anyone know of firms who have now moved their assessment centres to an online format following the corona outbreak?

 

[JayB]

Does anyone know of firms who have now moved their assessment centres to an online format following the corona outbreak?

I’m aware Gibson Dunn have done this for their ACs (summer vacation scheme)