General Discussion Thread 2020-21

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Cer96

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This is interesting and I think there's a huge amount to be considered further / seen as a caveat here (the context in which someone achieves their A Level grades in relation to their peers being the most important of those, also it being a 1 firm sample size I think), but my main question is what on earth is Training Contract performance score?

Doesn't seem to be explained at all in the article. Is that a standardised thing that all firms do and has just completely passed me by? Surely for that to be a reliable metric for the article it would need to have been calculated only comparing trainees against trainees that have done the same rotations, which would make it an even smaller sample size. If anyone knows any more about it I'd love to know!
 

Jessica Booker

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This is interesting and I think there's a huge amount to be considered further / seen as a caveat here (the context in which someone achieves their A Level grades in relation to their peers being the most important of those, also it being a 1 firm sample size I think), but my main question is what on earth is Training Contract performance score?

Doesn't seem to be explained at all in the article. Is that a standardised thing that all firms do and has just completely passed me by? Surely for that to be a reliable metric for the article it would need to have been calculated only comparing trainees against trainees that have done the same rotations, which would make it an even smaller sample size. If anyone knows any more about it I'd love to know!

No - it won’t be a standardised measure in a sense something all firms use. But it’s quite easy to use performance data across firms, which are typically on a sliding scale (and usually a similar scale of either 1-4 or 1-5).

It would be impossible to do it for people doing the same rotations, and even then rotations will vary every six months or if the same six months between different supervisors.
 

Adam Gilchrist

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I think the issue of deciding who gets an offer - whether it be through A level cut off, degree cut off, grade weighting, psychometric tests, etc - is that there are just so many people applying to these firms, and they don't have the manpower, time or expense to make in-depth decisions. MC firms have around 3000 people applying for a vac scheme - and would have more but for the cutoff. It will take far, far too long to go through each and every one of those applications purely on the virtue of the competency answers on the form and not considering anything else. It isn't time-efficient, and especially at graduate entry level, trainees are cannon fodder and are fairly easily replaceable, so the grade focus is a good way at least initially of slimming down the applicant numbers.

Grade requirements are no worse a way than any other of doing this, for two reasons in particular:

  1. If you read law at university but performed very poorly in certain important modules like contract, the firm might have good reason to be concerned why you did so badly in an area of law so important to their work.
  2. One of the most important - and necessary - qualities in any commercial lawyer is the ability to handle hard work, and a lot of it, mixed in with competing deadlines. If you weren't able to handle this at university/school, that could be a warning sign that you might find it difficult to handle a commercial lawyer's workload/life.
Naturally, some people have extenuating circumstances, and that's why firms take this into account if you explain this to them. On top of that, if you went to a private school with an amazing teacher/pupil ratio & low levels of class misbehaviour, then you'd have likely stood a better chance of doing well at A level - so again, this method definitely isn't perfect, but works decently.

What are the alternatives to this? Well, psychometric tests such as Watson Glaser are an alternative - and many firms use these anyway - but these too have their shortcomings. The first and most obvious problem is that you can game the Watson Glaser test. It only has so many questions to choose from, and after a while of practicing it, you've seen all the questions and know how to answer. The second problem is that some people naturally are very good at psychometric tests, and some really aren't. Yes, you can get better through practice, but some people still have that advantage, so these tests aren't some sort of great leveler where everyone has an equally good chance.

Other than that, how else can you decide? You could do it on extra-curriculars - but even then, too many people do them. You run a law blog? Great, so do 500 other people. You were on the committee of your university law society? Cool, never heard that one before. Extra-curriculars add value to your application, but you can't just decide on them alone.

It's also worth noting that at least some firms do consider the university you read your subject at, not just the degree result itself (confirmed to me by a partner from a top firm, whom I met in a social situation). That's because a lot of non-RG universities (and some RG universities) hand out firsts like confetti, which therefore places candidates from universities with more stringent awarding requirements at a disadvantage.

As Jessica & Jaysen have said so often on the forum, less than stellar grades aren't an automatic bar from commercial law, they just make it a bit more difficult - particularly in applying to firms like S&M, S&S and so on. If the rest of your application, your extra-curriculars, your competencies, your commercial awareness & your Watson Glaser scores are good, they will more than compensate for the bad grades in most cases.
 

Cer96

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That's because a lot of non-RG universities (and some RG universities) hand out firsts like confetti, which therefore places candidates from universities with more stringent awarding requirements at a disadvantage.

This is something I often see said, but haven't actually ever seen any evidence for. Does anyone have a link to any research that's been done into it? I appreciate it's a problem inherent in the silo'd nature of the UK HE system, and I suppose would need academics from a range of universities to blind mark the same essay, would be really keen to see if there's any work been done on this!

As someone with a 2.1 in Law from Oxbridge, it'd be in my interest to believe it's true, but I wonder the extent to which it's an extension of the 'mickey mouse subject/degree' narrative which often just serves to perpetuate the status & prestige of institutions attended and courses studied by those in positions of power and devalues the hard work done by students at all universities to achieve top grades. Universities which of course are disproportionately attended by marginalised groups within the UK.

Think it's particularly interesting given, as you say @Adam Gilchrist, it's something taken into account by firms in making their recruitment decisions!
 
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Jessica Booker

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I’m fairly flippant about this because I have done it for too long, but screening applications is not really a difficult thing to do, even with high volumes. It’s just that no one wants to do it and/or hasn’t got the time to do it.

For every 1000 applications a firm gets:

100-150 won’t be eligible
100-200 will be an easy no as the application forms are so poor
Probably around a third won’t meet the psychometric requirements.

The issue is then reviewing the remainder - typically you’ll only be able to do 10-12 applications per hour. So 600 applications takes up a lot of time. Many firms outsource the screening though (often to people like me) and can do that for a fraction of the price of what it costs to do a lot of other things they pay stupids amount of money for.
 
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GlamB

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Absolutely over the moon to have just received a TC offer from Linklaters. I've been in love with the firm since my first year at uni and still can't quite believe this is happening!

To all those expecting to hear for direct TC apps, I believe Links is finalising their offers to vac schemers today/Monday, so you should hopefully hear back soon. Do reach out if you think I can be of any help! :)
 

Jessica Booker

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This is something I often see said, but haven't actually ever seen any evidence for. Does anyone have a link to any research that's been done into it? I appreciate it's a problem inherent in the silo'd nature of the UK HE system, and I suppose would need academics from a range of universities to blind mark the same essay, would be really keen to see if there's any work been done on this!

As someone with a 2.1 in Law from Oxbridge, it'd be in my interest to believe it's true, but I wonder the extent to which it's an extension of the 'mickey mouse subject/degree' narrative which often just serves to perpetuate the status & prestige of institutions attended and courses studied by those in positions of power and devalues the hard work done by students at all universities to achieve top grades. Universities which of course are disproportionately attended by marginalised groups within the UK.

Think it's particularly interesting given, as you say @Adam Gilchrist, it's something taken into account by firms in making their recruitment decisions!

It’s one of those awful myths perpetuated by people who are trying to protect their own reputation.

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/universities-biggest-shares-21s-and-firsts-revealed
 

Jessica Booker

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Absolutely over the moon to have just received a TC offer from Linklaters. I've been in love with the firm since my first year at uni and still can't quite believe this is happening!

To all those expecting to hear for direct TC apps, I believe Links is finalising their offers to vac schemers today/Monday, so you should hopefully hear back soon. Do reach out if you think I can be of any help! :)

Congratulations!
 

Jessica Booker

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Thought so - Thanks for the link, the table in there is brilliant!

There’s a lot of things up for debate with this.

For instance, Science degrees are typically easier to get 1st in than arts degrees. So how do you separate them out? There also tends to be a north/south divide in terms of performance.

But the argument that lower ranked unis give out too many 1st/2.1s come down to people thinking that those with higher A-level grades are some how more deserving/worthy of getting good grades. This debate started with the issues of using A-levels as a marker of success, and I’d suggest this is no different.

The thing that stands out for me with that table is how those universities ranked highest are also those with the highest proportion of privately educated and/or international students. That can’t be a coincidence.
 

Adam Gilchrist

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This is something I often see said, but haven't actually ever seen any evidence for. Does anyone have a link to any research that's been done into it? I appreciate it's a problem inherent in the silo'd nature of the UK HE system, and I suppose would need academics from a range of universities to blind mark the same essay, would be really keen to see if there's any work been done on this!

As someone with a 2.1 in Law from Oxbridge, it'd be in my interest to believe it's true, but I wonder the extent to which it's an extension of the 'mickey mouse subject/degree' narrative which often just serves to perpetuate the status & prestige of institutions attended and courses studied by those in positions of power and devalues the hard work done by students at all universities to achieve top grades. Universities which of course are disproportionately attended by marginalised groups within the UK.

Think it's particularly interesting given, as you say @Adam Gilchrist, it's something taken into account by firms in making their recruitment decisions!

Just to repeat, this was said to me by a partner at one firm - I have no idea what other firms do/what other partners feel. It also isn't my opinion.

As to statistics, this is from 2018, but: https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/universities-biggest-shares-21s-and-firsts-revealed#

If you click the table and re-order it by percentage of first class degrees awarded, you'll see that Oxford and Cambridge are down in 11th & 14th place respectively. Surrey, UEA, University College Birmingham, Greenwich, West London & Anglia Ruskin all award a higher percentage of firsts than universities like Bristol, Durham, St Andrews etc. Even if you discount music/drama conservatoires because their grading/awarding is done rather differently, there's a trend showing.

I'm certain that there is an element of snobbery and mockery present, but equally there's a grain of truth too. Then again, are some degrees more difficult than others/more difficult to get in for? Scientists would likely make the standard charge that arts students have it easy, and perhaps that is true. As Jessica said, the percentage of private school students/wealthy internationals skews things too.
 
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Jessica Booker

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Just to repeat, this was said to me by a partner at one firm - I have no idea what other firms do/what other partners feel.

As to statistics, this is from 2018, but: https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/universities-biggest-shares-21s-and-firsts-revealed#

If you click the table and re-order it by percentage of first class degrees awarded, you'll see that Oxford and Cambridge are down in 11th & 14th place respectively. Surrey, UEA, University College Birmingham, Greenwich, West London & Anglia Ruskin all award a higher percentage of firsts than universities like Bristol, Durham, St Andrews etc. Even if you discount music/drama conservatoires because their grading/awarding is done rather differently, there's a trend showing.

I'm certain that there is an element of snobbery and mockery present, but equally there's a grain of truth too

I don’t see Oxford or Cambridge as “dropping” - they are still in the top 10% of universities awarding firsts. Overall higher ranked universities award more firsts than those who are lower ranked. Just look at how many highly ranked universities it at the other end of the table.

I don’t see a grain of truth to it at all. It’s just a really crappy headline myth perpetuated by people with their own self interests to perpetuate it.
 

Adam Gilchrist

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I don’t see Oxford or Cambridge as “dropping” - they are still in the top 10% of universities awarding firsts.
I didn't mean so much that they were dropping, but that in some forums (ie TSR & occasionally the cesspool that is LegalCheek comments) there seems to be this belief that as they are meant to be the two best universities in the UK (and yes, I know there's a whole debate about whether they actually are) that they should therefore be churning out the highest numbers of firsts as well. Again, not my opinion, but that line invariably crops up on TSR
 

Daniel Boden

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    Absolutely over the moon to have just received a TC offer from Linklaters. I've been in love with the firm since my first year at uni and still can't quite believe this is happening!

    To all those expecting to hear for direct TC apps, I believe Links is finalising their offers to vac schemers today/Monday, so you should hopefully hear back soon. Do reach out if you think I can be of any help! :)
    Huge congrats! What a brilliant way to end the week - hope you are able to celebrate this Bank Holiday weekend :D
     

    Jessica Booker

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    I didn't mean so much that they were dropping, but that in some forums (ie TSR & occasionally the cesspool that is LegalCheek comments) there seems to be this belief that as they are meant to be the two best universities in the UK (and yes, I know there's a whole debate about whether they actually are) that they should therefore be churning out the highest numbers of firsts as well. Again, not my opinion, but that line invariably crops up on TSR

    I think many fail to recognise that Oxford and Cambridge are a very different education system to any other university. It’s like private school education on super charge. I have no doubt it is intellectually harder to study there, but I don’t think it is actually overall harder to study there. I think if anything it’s probably a lot easier to study there given the high levels of support/close supervision you get. Many people at other universities will be lucky to meet with a tutor once in their entire 3-4 years, let alone weekly.
     

    Cer96

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    I think many fail to recognise that Oxford and Cambridge are a very different education system to any other university. It’s like private school education on super charge. I have no doubt it is intellectually harder to study there, but I don’t think it is actually overall harder to study there. I think if anything it’s probably a lot easier to study there given the high levels of support/close supervision you get. Many people at other universities will be lucky to meet with a tutor once in their entire 3-4 years, let alone weekly.

    I think the reality is probably, as you suggest, somewhere in the middle. Workload is definitely intense; a supervision essay every week compared to friends at other unis who maybe did one/two essay a term definitely requires a lot of effort and teaching in groups of 1-3 means there's nowhere to hid unlike seminars of ~10, but the other side of that coin is you get a ridiculously high volume of feedback and practice before you even get near the exam hall at the end of the year.

    With Oxbridge I think it's always important to remember the experience of different students. Broadly, if you're the stereotypical, traditional private schooled student from a stably middle class background then it's a completely congruent experience for you and an environment in which you're going to find it easier to study. By contrast, if you're a 'non-traditional' student from a very different background (as I definitely was) who isn't coming into the setting imbued with all of the social and cultural capital bound up in the Oxbridge teaching system, it's much harder, particularly at first. Of course, this is reflected across all universities too, and is part of the reason I think drawing effective conclusions on institutional levels (like saying it's easy to get a 1st at XYZ university or on ABC course) can be so difficult. The lives and experiences of students at universities are so incredibly varied, that often those conclusions often result in reproducing the power and interest of those with the most privilege.
     

    Jessica Booker

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    Another consideration, is that those at lower ranked universities are much more likely to be:
    • Students commuting to university from some distance
    • Working part-time
    • Have caring responsibilities
    I suspect those commitments will impact someone’s ability to get a first much more than anything else.
     

    Jessica Booker

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    I think the reality is probably, as you suggest, somewhere in the middle. Workload is definitely intense; a supervision essay every week compared to friends at other unis who maybe did one/two essay a term definitely requires a lot of effort and teaching in groups of 1-3 means there's nowhere to hid unlike seminars of ~10, but the other side of that coin is you get a ridiculously high volume of feedback and practice before you even get near the exam hall at the end of the year.

    With Oxbridge I think it's always important to remember the experience of different students. Broadly, if you're the stereotypical, traditional private schooled student from a stably middle class background then it's a completely congruent experience for you and an environment in which you're going to find it easier to study. By contrast, if you're a 'non-traditional' student from a very different background (as I definitely was) who isn't coming into the setting imbued with all of the social and cultural capital bound up in the Oxbridge teaching system, it's much harder, particularly at first. Of course, this is reflected across all universities too, and is part of the reason I think drawing effective conclusions on institutional levels (like saying it's easy to get a 1st at XYZ university or on ABC course) can be so difficult. The lives and experiences of students at universities are so incredibly varied, that often those conclusions often result in reproducing the power and interest of those with the most privilege.

    completely agree with you. This is actually something lower ranked universities also struggle with - their students are less prepared to transition to a new learning style, and there are many more of them than at somewhere like Oxford/Cambridge. You only have to look at drop out rates to see this.
     
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