2020-21 Vacation Scheme Applications Discussion

[Jessica Booker]

Guys, am I being too harsh if I decide to not apply to law firms where there are no black people?

Its not harsh as it is a personal opinion. But my personal view would be

1) How do you know there is really are "no" black people? You are unlikely to know all employees and unless the firm is reporting themselves they have no black people, I don't think you can come to that conclusion

2) Why not try and be someone to change it? The only way that will happen is if people apply to the firm. If every black person had the same attitude, nothing would change.

 

[Andrew M]

Guys, am I being too harsh if I decide to not apply to law firms where there are no black people?

In my opinion, no. Not at all. It gives me serious pause when a firm says that it has this diversity focus and then I turn up at an event and every partner, associate and trainee I meet is white.

 

[LegalLily]

Imo just because a firm does employ a good number of black people doesn't mean once you get there you won't face micro-aggressions, inappropriate comments, people touching your hair etc etc. Racism won't necessarily be eradicated just because there is more POC at the firm.

 

[Jessica Booker]

Same, there are firms out there that I like a lot. But then I go visit their website and LinkedIn page and ZERO Black African people at all levels. It really upsets me and I ask myself, is it possible that no black candidate was good enough to work for you?

I do

I'll be frank on this, so excuse my bluntness. That is a poor assumption.

Many ethnic minorities do not like being profiled on firm's websites as they don't want to be see as the "token" ethnic minority on a website - added to that, many people just don't want to be profiled at all no matter what their ethnicity or other characteristics. Many people are highly private or introvert and just don't want to be publicly presented.

Lots of people are not on LinkedIn and many others who are don't have profile pictures.

Unless a firm is reporting the demographics of their employees, I don't think you can make such assumptions.

 

[S87]

Its not harsh as it is a personal opinion. But my personal view would be

1) How do you know there is really are "no" black people? You are unlikely to know all employees and unless the firm is reporting themselves they have no black people, I don't think you can come to that conclusion

2) Why not try and be someone to change it? The only way that will happen is if people apply to the firm. If every black person had the same attitude, nothing would change.

Hi Jessica,

1) I investigate every angle of the firm's online presence, I actually spend a fair amount of hours on this particular but yet important research.
2) I would love to tell you that I could be the one that could actually change the situation, but I am a bit tired. I spent my life trying to tell people that it is rude to touch my hair, I have to be accompanied by my uncle to get a new ID, he works at the local office in my hometown. In Italy when you graduate, you have to discuss your dissertation before an academic commission. My supervisor was so impressed that asked my mum how long I have been living in Italy. I went to the top law school in Italy and was adopted at age of four. I also happen to be lesbian, my first job in London was for a broker firm and I was their first openly LGBTQ employee, I left the company also because I heard the senior brokers being homophobic and one of them said that I was lesbian because I never tasted a ball. They though I left the office, I was in the bathroom getting ready for the gym. I tried believe me!

 

[Jessica Booker]

Hi Jessica,

1) I investigate every angle of the firm's online presence, I actually spend a fair amount of hours on this particular but yet important research.
2) I would love to tell you that I could be the one that could actually change the situation, but I am a bit tired. I spent my life trying to tell people that it is rude to touch my hair, I have to be accompanied by my uncle to get a new ID, he works at the local office in my hometown. In Italy when you graduate, you have to discuss your dissertation before an academic commission. My supervisor was so impressed that asked my mum how long I have been living in Italy. I went to the top law school in Italy and was adopted at age of four. I also happen to be lesbian, my first job in London was for a broker firm and I was their first openly LGBTQ employee, I left the company also because I heard the senior brokers being homophobic and one of them said that I was lesbian because I never tasted a ball. They though I left the office, I was in the bathroom getting ready for the gym. I tried believe me!

I don't think an online presence is an accurate representation for any firm for the reasons I have outlined.

If you are tired, then again, that's fine - it is your personal choice and decision to do that. But as I said, if everyone has the same attitude as you, nothing would change.

My view is that we all have a responsibility to create change and maybe part of the problem is that many keep defering to other people to try and make that change.

 

[Andrew M]

I don't think an online presence is an accurate representation for any firm for the reasons I have outlined.

If you are tired, then again, that's fine - it is your personal choice and decision to do that. But as I said, if everyone has the same attitude as you, nothing would change.

My view is that we all have a responsibility to create change and maybe part of the problem is that many keep defering to other people to try and make that change.

I know that you are viewing this objectively but I don't necessarily think it's fair for you to say that "if everyone has the same attitude as you, nothing would change". What that effectively does is put the burden of removing discrimination on the discriminated - that just doesn't sit well with me.

 

[Jessica Booker]

I know that you are viewing this objectively but I don't necessarily think it's fair for you to say that "if everyone has the same attitude as you, nothing would change". What that effectively does is put the burden of removing discrimination on the discriminated - that just doesn't sit well with me.

If everyone had the same attitude, there wouldn't be any applicants to discriminate against though.

What should a firm do if they get 0 applications from black applicants if they were faced with this barrier?

 

[TT98]

Guys, am I being too harsh if I decide to not apply to law firms where there are no black people?

In my opinion, not at all! I am also personally put off if there are very little or no black people/POC (especially in senior positions), even more so if they advocate that they are diverse and inclusive.

I think it is so important to work with a range of different people, you learn so much! As a woman of colour it can be exhausting being the only non-white person in the room sometimes, and always having to be the one who has to 'be the first to make and lead the change.' I have grown up being the 'first one' to make a stand throughout school and some jobs etc, and the number of micro-aggressions to straight out ignorant racism I faced was tiring, and now it is so important for me to find a firm that is truly diverse.

If a firm is still not diverse by this point, then personally I see that as a red flag. If there is very little diversity for example on the firms website or diverity reports at senior and middle management level, then I am put off. There are so many other law firms out there that are diverse across race, ethnicity, religion, background, sexuality etc, that have a much more diverse and inclusive culture. I hope you find the right law firm for you!

 

[Jedward87]

I don't think an online presence is an accurate representation for any firm for the reasons I have outlined.

If you are tired, then again, that's fine - it is your personal choice and decision to do that. But as I said, if everyone has the same attitude as you, nothing would change.

My view is that we all have a responsibility to create change and maybe part of the problem is that many keep defering to other people to try and make that change.

respectfully, I completely disagree. Piping up as someone who is mixed race, it’s not right to put the onus of changing and improving the firm‘s diversity and understanding on people who would potentially face micro aggressions and worse at the firm if they were the only Black trainee or employee?

It shouldn’t be the few Black trainees or employees who have the responsibility to create change in the firm, it should be on the firm and its senior leadership to recognise its shortcomings and work to do better.

It is way too much pressure and would be exhausting to expect someone to feel comfortable and proactive in creating change if they were the only Black employee or one of a few. They’re just trying to do a job like everyone else? They’re not being paid to sit there and educate seniors, they should be doing that themselves.

 

[S87]

I know that you are viewing this objectively but I don't necessarily think it's fair for you to say that "if everyone has the same attitude as you, nothing would change". What that effectively does is put the burden of removing discrimination on the discriminated - that just doesn't sit well with me.

Also why do we always need to be the change? why do I always teach you how to not discriminate me?

The conversation and the answers are really interesting and show that we still have a long way to equality.

 

[Holly]

Guys, am I being too harsh if I decide to not apply to law firms where there are no black people?

To answer your question - no it isn’t harsh at all.

What may be a helpful approach is shortlisting firms who are taking active measures to enhance diversity and inclusion at all levels, specifically for black people.

It’s not your sole responsibility to make a firm more diverse. Law firms have smart people at senior levels so I’d hope they could figure out how to target, attract, hire and retain more diverse applicants.

Best of luck with your applications!

 

[Jessica Booker]

respectfully, I completely disagree. Piping up as someone who is mixed race, it’s not right to put the onus of changing and improving the firm‘s diversity and understanding on people who would potentially face micro aggressions and worse at the firm if they were the only Black trainee or employee?

It shouldn’t be the few Black trainees or employees who have the responsibility to create change in the firm, it should be on the firm and its senior leadership to recognise its shortcomings and work to do better.

It is way too much pressure and would be exhausting to expect someone to feel comfortable and proactive in creating change if they were the only Black employee or one of a few. They’re just trying to do a job like everyone else? They’re not being paid to sit there and educate seniors, they should be doing that themselves.

I don't know where you made an assumption I was mixed race. It is those type of assumptions that are part of my concern in these conversations.

You must have misread my last sentence where I said in my opinion it was everyone's responsibilty.

 

[Andrew M]

If everyone had the same attitude, there wouldn't be any applicants to discriminate against though.

What should a firm do if they get 0 applications from black applicants if they were faced with this barrier?

It's certainly true that it might be the case that they just haven't had quality applications from ethnic minorities (although I do find it slightly unlikely in this day and age). I just think the way you've approached this is wrong. It isn't fair to guilt individuals into being the one to break that glass ceiling. And by framing it as thus, it could be interpreted that you're suggesting that a lack of diversity is the fault of ethnic minorities and not the firms themselves. Which I'm sure that you wouldn't have meant to imply but there it is.

 

[Anon 11031]

respectfully, I completely disagree. Piping up as someone who is mixed race, it’s not right to put the onus of changing and improving the firm‘s diversity and understanding on people who would potentially face micro aggressions and worse at the firm if they were the only Black trainee or employee?

It shouldn’t be the few Black trainees or employees who have the responsibility to create change in the firm, it should be on the firm and its senior leadership to recognise its shortcomings and work to do better.

It is way too much pressure and would be exhausting to expect someone to feel comfortable and proactive in creating change if they were the only Black employee or one of a few. They’re just trying to do a job like everyone else? They’re not being paid to sit there and educate seniors, they should be doing that themselves.

Also why do we always need to be the change if actually have the whole power, why do I always teach you how to not discriminate me?

Absolutely agree that it is the attitudes of people within the industry that have to change. The barriers that are put up against those in minorities throughout their entire life are already a huge burden and the expectation shouldn't be that those individuals have to change the attitudes of others.

 

[TT98]

If everyone had the same attitude, there wouldn't be any applicants to discriminate against though.

What should a firm do if they get 0 applications from black applicants if they were faced with this barrier?

With all due respect, there must be a reason that black people, other POC, and anyone else from diverse backgrounds are not applying to these types of firms. It is not something that everyone can understand if they have not personally experienced it. Perhaps it might be that they create a 'certain atmosphere/culture' where we might feel that we don't comfortably fit in, for example. I have experienced this many times before, and to be quite honest I am tired of 'being the first one to make a change.' It is 2021 and if a firm has little to no diversity, that is not good enough, and I dont want to risk facing micro-aggressions, racism etc in the workplace. The job as a trainee lawyer is already stressful enough 😭

Why do we have to be the ones to change our attitude? Law firms consist of highly intelligent people, the firm itself has a responsibility to create a culture where everyone feels truly valued. If they have not done this yet, there are plenty of other firms where we will be valued.

 

[G P]

I don't know where you made an assumption I was mixed race. It is those type of assumptions that are part of my concern in these conversations.

You must have misread my last sentence where I said in my opinion it was everyone's responsibilty.

I might be wrong, but I think @Jedward87 was saying that they were mixed race?

 

[33c]

Latham VS offer ahhh!!!!!!

its given me the motivation to smash my final AC next week 😍

 

[LegalLily]

Also why do we always need to be the change? why do I always teach you how to not discriminate me?

The conversation and the answers are really interesting and show that we still have a long way to equality.

I agree that it is not our responsibility to change attitudes, im mixed race myself. However, I just think its misleading to assume your experience will be better at a more 'diverse' firm.

I only say this as someone with a friend at a VERY diverse MC firm. You'll probably be able to guess to one im talking about. And although the firm has many black and brown associates, trainees etc. Her experience with racism has been absolutely awful. Unfortunately we can not just assume our experiences will be good just because the firm is diverse. As for many firms I think they are more bothered about reaching a diversity quota than actually improving the working experiences of their black employees

 

[Jedward87]

I don't know where you made an assumption I was mixed race. It is those type of assumptions that are part of my concern in these conversations.

You must have misread my last sentence where I said in my opinion it was everyone's responsibilty.

I didn’t, I input that I was mixed race 😊 I didn’t make any kind of assumption about your heritage because I don’t know you.

I think the ‘being everyone’s responsibility’ aspect is where we differ - it is on white employees to call out instances of micro aggressions and racist behaviour and seek to work on their inherent biases. As I said above, it is not on Black trainees or employees to work on the firm’s diversity or belonging strategy, or or educate the senior leaders, or create change, when they are simply trying to do their job in the circumstances that their white counterparts get to do it in i.e. without the expectation of creating change. It’s not their responsibility to educate or teach people how not to be racist.