2020-21 Vacation Scheme Applications Discussion

[Jessica Booker]

It's certainly true that it might be the case that they just haven't had quality applications from ethnic minorities (although I do find it slightly unlikely in this day and age). I just think the way you've approached this is wrong. It isn't fair to guilt individuals into being the one to break that glass ceiling. And by framing it as thus, it could be interpreted that you're suggesting that a lack of diversity is the fault of ethnic minorities and not the firms themselves. Which I'm sure that you wouldn't have meant to imply but there it is.

We were talking about black applicants though, not ethnic minorities. Firms need more black applicants, in every data study I have done or seen, they are under-represented in applicants compared to ethnic minorities, which as a whole are actually over-represented in applicants to law firms.

I am dissapointed that is your take on my view. Anyone who knows me would know that either of your suggestions are way off the mark. If you and others read it that way, then I apologise and will be more mindful of my language going forward.

 

[S87]

I agree that it is not our responsibility to change attitudes, im mixed race myself. However, I just think its misleading to assume your experience will be better at a more 'diverse' firm.

I only say this as someone with a friend at a VERY diverse MC firm. You'll probably be able to guess to one im talking about. And although the firm has many black and brown associates, trainees etc. Her experience with racism has been absolutely awful. Unfortunately we can not just assume our experiences will be good just because the firm is diverse. As for many firms I think they are more bothered about reaching a diversity quota than actually improving the working experiences of their black employees

I know the firm and in the black community we are very aware of their ways.

 

[Jessica Booker]

I didn’t, I input that I was mixed race 😊 I didn’t make any kind of assumption about your heritage because I don’t know you.

I think the ‘being everyone’s responsibility’ aspect is where we differ - it is on white employees to call out instances of micro aggressions and racist behaviour and seek to work on their inherent biases. As I said above, it is not on Black trainees or employees to work on the firm’s diversity or belonging strategy, or or educate the senior leaders, or create change, when they are simply trying to do their job in the circumstances that their white counterparts get to do it in i.e. without the expectation of creating change. It’s not their responsibility to educate or teach people how not to be racist.

Just shows you how people can read things their own way in a forum.

You are right we do differ. I think it is up to people of all ethnicities. Without everyone on board, we won't get as far as we need to.

 

[jan28]

Latham VS offer ahhh!!!!!!

its given me the motivation to smash my final AC next week 😍

amazing congrats !!

 

[I.Like.UFOs.Not.PFOs]

Firstly, it’s been really interesting to read about everyone’s insights on this matter.

As a POC myself, my opinion on this may be slightly one-sided, and it definitely does not represent the opinion of all minorities!

I think one of my issues when I see firms that are not very diverse, is that there is a lack of transparency. Firms often claim that they have always cared deeply about diversity and inclusion but their statistics seem to say otherwise. And when I go to law fairs etc. and meet with these firms, I like to question them about their statistics but they often just gloss over the topic.

IMO it would be nice to have some transparency. I wouldn’t mind if they just said that previously diversity and inclusion wasn’t on their priority list, but now they see how wrong that was an are actively trying to make a change. Because it is evident that only in recent years (or even only since last year) some firms have only just started prioritising diversity and inclusion - that’s why their statistics may not yet be ideal. If they were honest about this, I would be more inclined to apply, compared to firms that are suggesting that from their inception, they’ve always cared about diversity and inclusion, when that’s clearly not the case.

 

[Holly]

Latham VS offer ahhh!!!!!!

its given me the motivation to smash my final AC next week 😍

That’s amazing!!! Great firm, enjoy the VS 🥳

 

[Jessica Booker]

Can I politely request that if we want this conversation around race to continue (happy to stay as involved as people want me to be - or not at all), that we create a new thread about it in the general discussion forum?

It means this thread can stay on track with updates on vacation schemes for those who are coming in for that information.

Get it is partly my fault for causing this conversation, but we agreed sometime ago that if debates like this picked up, we would request a new thread was created.

 

[S87]

Can I politely request that if we want this conversation around race to continue (happy to stay as involved as people want me to be - or not at all), that we create a new thread about it in the general discussion forum?

It means this thread can stay on track with updates on vacation schemes for those who are coming in for that information.

Get it is partly my fault for causing this conversation, but we agreed sometime ago that if debates like this picked up, we would request a new thread was created.

You are right.

My apologies

 

[LawGrad2019]

Guys, am I being too harsh if I decide to not apply to law firms where there are no black people?

Hey!

First of all, I completely agree that this is an entirely reasonable deal-breaker for anyone.

To add a more positive spin on it, perhaps we could all list firms that we've been impressed by on the diversity and inclusion front?

For me, although I am not a POC so take my view with a pinch of salt, it has to be Mills & Reeve. They stressed the importance of it from day 1 and if you go on their YouTube channel, they have videos like 'What is White Privilege?' and actually walk the walk. Charles Russell Speechlys also have a fantastic D&I focus.

 

[Jessica Booker]

You are right.

My apologies

No need to apologise! It is good for us to have these conversation - and in my opinion it is important for us to do so. I just want to take it to a different space.

I don't think either of us expected it to result in more of a debate when we posted or for it to take over the thread. When these things happen (whatever the topic), we will just move it across to somewhere else.

 

[33c]

That’s amazing!!! Great firm, enjoy the VS 🥳

Thank you so much!! I'm buzzing... never in a million years would I think I would get a VS at somewhere like Latham!!!

 

[Holly]

Thank you so much!! I'm buzzing... never in a million years would I think I would get a VS at somewhere like Latham!!!

Amazing! Make sure to celebrate 🎉 x

 

[rosie.l]

LATHAM VS OFFER WOOHOO!!

 

[Andrew M]

We were talking about black applicants though, not ethnic minorities. Firms need more black applicants, in every data study I have done or seen, they are under-represented in applicants compared to ethnic minorities, which as a whole are actually over-represented in applicants to law firms.

I am dissapointed that is your take on my view. Anyone who knows me would know that either of your suggestions are way off the mark. If you and others read it that way, then I apologise and will be more mindful of my language going forward.

With due respect, I wasn't suggesting anything. I made a point of saying that I didn't think you meant your comments to be taken how they clearly were taken. It's just not the individual responsibility of a black/gay/trans/disabled person to be the person who has to make the first steps and change the culture of a firm. However, I agree with what you meant - equality and inclusion do require everybody to be on board.

 

[law89]

Gateley AC

 

[Jessica Booker]

With due respect, I wasn't suggesting anything. I made a point of saying that I didn't think you meant your comments to be taken how they clearly were taken. It's just not the individual responsibility of a black/gay/trans/disabled person to be the person who has to make the first steps and change the culture of a firm. However, I agree with what you meant - equality and inclusion do require everybody to be on board.

Again, it shows how different people read things differently. Maybe I took the guilt tripping reference a little too personally though.

For clairty though, I have never said it is individual people's responsibility though. I have said it is everyone's.

 

[KS94]

I've only briefly read the above discussion. As an ethnic minority (this does not qualify my opinion but always seems to be the go-to), I think a few comments are harsh on @Jessica Booker.

I don't think Jessica necessarily intended to imply that it is the candidate's issue when it comes to diversity - just that from a GR perspective, it becomes a bit of a catch 22 situation.

 

[Andrew M]

Again, it shows how different people read things differently. Maybe I took the guilt tripping reference a little too personally though.

I meant no offence and I'm sorry if I did.

 

[Jessica Booker]

@S87 has created a new thread for us to take the conversation elsewhere.... please feel free to post future responses to earlier posts/or new comments in there:

Law firms & Diversity | The Corporate Law Academy Forum

I have quoted some of the latest posts in there, please feel free to continue the conversation in this thread.

I think it is really important for us to continue this conversation.

 

[RoughWood]

I completely understand all points of view here and you shouldn't be expected to have to be the ones to change the system. As a career changer I applied to one firm that I hadn't really considered purely because it was the only one where I saw myself represented as a trainee in a sea of young 'uns so I do understand where you are coming from. However, Jessica's point is valid, if all minorities don't want to apply to that firm because they don't feel they are represented, then the firm will never have the option to recruit a wide range of diversity.

I think this is more an issue of their PR and marketing than necessarily exclusion of diversity, but they are missing out on recruiting diverse talent like you guys, it's their loss!