2020-21 Vacation Scheme Applications Discussion

[Daniel Boden]

Also I love how Shearman sent their lawyers eggs

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The same week as many firms announced 'thank you' bonuses for all their hard work as well 😂 😂 😂

 

[Jacob Miller]

My Sunday morning currently consists of, Financial Times morning brief, reading through TCLA, Lisrening to the cricket on the radio and taking notes from my module content.

what a lovely Sunday morning.


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Enjoy!
I'm currently on my fourth double espresso and arguing that Lord Sumption screwed up defining piercing the corporate veil in a leading case, fun fun fun 👀 💀

 

[Daniel Boden]

As someone that did what I don't think many people would have done (turn down a US firm TC offer for a firm that pays less on NQ) I can confirm that all these things definitely weighed into my decision making process. Almost all US firms (personally think only W&C are the exception) in London are heavily transactional, and if you somehow know straight out of university that that's what you want for yourself then fair play, but if not then there are better places to explore your options at. If the salary is a consideration then work towards moving later on in your career, you can change firms but can you really change the area you choose to qualify in? Also while the difference in base salary alone seems insane, the difference in your take home salary post tax isn't actually all that big at all. I think many people forget how much of a cut the 40% tax rate makes.

It's also worth noting that while US firms have high retention rates (possibly because who really wants to leave if the NQ salary was a big part of the draw anyway) many of them also have high attrition rates. One associate I spoke to told me out of the 25 people that qualified in her cohort about 6 of them still work at the firm 5 years later and most have moved in house. I personally think there's a lot to be said about how the hours you are expected to work will factor into creating a sustainable long term career for yourself.

Yeah the reasons you give in your first paragraph were one of the big draws for me to want to work at Gibson Dunn tbh as their work is split 50:50 between transactional and disputes work which is perfect for someone like me who wants to keep their options open as much as possible (so if that's important to you all as applicants then I'd highly recommend considering them too!) and yes you're right the 40% tax rate is incredibly depressing 😂

 

[Daniel Boden]

Enjoy!
I'm currently on my fourth double espresso and arguing that Lord Sumption screwed up defining piercing the corporate veil in a leading case, fun fun fun 👀 💀

Prest v Petrodel by any chance?

 

[Jacob Miller]

Prest v Petrodel by any chance?

Yes!

I'm basically saying he got it wrong in saying that piercing the veil is bypassing separate corporate personality - it's not and there's literally no way it can be without implying a company doesn't have capacity or maturity. I'm arguing that it actually removes the right to entity/ owner shielding (asset partitioning) so that rights and obligations of members and companies can essentially become one and the same rather than being separated. My diss is on corporate tort liability so the part on piercing the veil is on the judicial history of changing liability rules for tort creditors.

 

[Matt_96]

Hi congrats on your interview!

could I pm you regarding Brown Rudnick?

thank you 🙏 in advance

Sure thing

 

[Kablahc]

Not sure how I missed this but huge huge huge congrats! ☺️ It's always so nice to see the most active and helpful users on forum get all the success they deserve! Live footage of you walking out into the world knowing you are THAT amazing candidate:

Thank you so much!!!!!!!!!

*replace Wildcat with TCLA-er

 

[Daisy D]

Do you mean the VS invite? When I completed the form, I was brought through to their main website too. Checked with grad rec if they received the form and they did so should be ok

Ah amazing, thank you!!

Sorry yes meant VS, been a long morning!

 

[S87]

Yeah I definitely don't think it's an unusual approach. Just the number of times I go on Linkedin and see yet another person that's messaged asking me how on god's green earth I could have turned down the US firm really makes me feel like I did something so rogue haha. I agree that really for most people the allure with US firms is just the prestige. Especially in this day and age, money = prestige which is why MC firms are losing that pull factor for most candidates (I think). If tomorrow by some miracle an SC firm decided to start paying its NQs £120k then you'd start seeing people refer to them as an "elite" SC firm lol. Thank you for pointing out those firms though! Personally I'd be interested to see if in 10 years some of these firms actually start trying to be more "full service" in London similar to their offerings in the US. Would make the London legal market a lot more interesting!

I think it is also an age factor.
Younger candidate are attracted to money and prestige. They don’t consider the tax or other factors.
Getting older, going through therapy and getting engaged really made me reevaluate my choices. I love the life I had and I want to give what I had to my kids. However, I really missed my dad and now that we have a family whatsapp group I am realising that my father doesn’t know us. He is the most incredible father, and I am glad that my parents adopted me. But he got sucked in the corporate life and I want to spend just a bit more time with my future wife.

 

[Veep9]

What are they like / are they really hard? :/ I'm about to do them.

Sorry! I got distracted and just saw this now. They’re not difficult but I found them very time pressured. There’s a lot to check, especially as Georgina said when numbers are involved, and there’s barely enough time.

How did you find them?

 

[jasonweee]

how long does Gibson Dunn take to get back to you after a first round interview

I'm wondering the same! I interviewed recently so I hope within a week.

 

[Jacob Miller]

I think it is also an age factor.
Younger candidate are attracted to money and prestige. They don’t consider the tax or other factors.
Getting older, going through therapy and getting engaged really made me reevaluate my choices. I love the life I had and I want to give what I had to my kids. However, I really missed my dad and now that we have a family whatsapp group I am realising that my father doesn’t know us. He is the most incredible father, and I am glad that my parents adopted me. But he got sucked in the corporate life and I want to spend just a bit more time with my future wife.

As someone else who's engaged, this resonates massively with me. I've mentioned a few times here that my better half and I are both going into commercial law (she's got a TC with Freshfields), we're incredibly close as a couple - live together, same uni classes, etc - and we're both incredibly aware that the corporate life will be exceptionally demanding and put a real hard limit on the amount of time we can spend together, especially at more junior levels where we have less autonomy. That will be a really tough adjustment for us both. I'm personally not remotely phased by long hours/ tough working conditions in and of myself - I thrive in that sort of environment when I'm pushing myself to the max of what I can do - but it's something which I think about more from a relationship point of view for sure.

Kids are still a long while away for us (I want to own more fast/ loud cars before I need to buy a dad wagon lol), so that's not as big a consideration now, but I'm massively family-orientated in general so I know it's something which will be a major factor for me in the future when we begin to think down that road.

 

[JayC]

I don't think your approach is unusual at all tbh. It just feels less common probably because of the 'prestige' and competition for places at these big firms. If I end up having to make a choice between one of the bigger firms I've applied to and one of the boutiques that is very specialist in what I am interested in (e.g. Peters & Peters), it's going to be an absolute no brainer for me. I value having a quality life as much as a quality workload, and I understand the exit opportunities are pretty much the same anyway if you're good enough.

Also, FWIW there are a few firms that are a bit less transactional than K&E if you look closely. Brown Rudnick, which I'm interviewing at tomorrow, is technically full service, but has a huuuuge practice in contentious insolvency, regulatory and corporate crime work. I think Arnold & Porter and Covington are also very focused on IP and in particular life sciences in London, which is more advisory and contentious (at times) than transactional. Although it does have a formidable reputation for corporate/finance work, Skadden also arguably has one of the strongest arbitration practices in the UK - it has 3 QC's!

Also Debevoise’s London office is all about international arbitration and public international law in addition to its transactional work, regularly hiring newly qualified barristers as associates including having Lord Goldsmith QC (ex-attorney general) running its international arbitration. In fact a lot of US firms have large amounts of their international arbitration practices done through London given the prevalence of English law in many parts of the world

 

[S87]

Hi guys,
Did anyone complete a course to learn how to code? And if it’s so, how did you find it?
Thank you 😊

 

[Andrew M]

I think it is also an age factor.
Younger candidate are attracted to money and prestige. They don’t consider the tax or other factors.
Getting older, going through therapy and getting engaged really made me reevaluate my choices. I love the life I had and I want to give what I had to my kids. However, I really missed my dad and now that we have a family whatsapp group I am realising that my father doesn’t know us. He is the most incredible father, and I am glad that my parents adopted me. But he got sucked in the corporate life and I want to spend just a bit more time with my future wife.

I specifically applied to firms which are known to have better hours for this reason. I'm in my thirties now - I've already done the 60+ hour weeks (albeit in hospitality on much less money), I just couldn't do it now even if I wanted to. Which I don't, since I have a partner who works a 9-6 Monday-Friday, and I'd actually like to spend time with him.

 

[Matt_96]

Also Debevoise’s London office is all about international arbitration and public international law in addition to its transactional work, regularly hiring newly qualified barristers as associates including having Lord Goldsmith QC (ex-attorney general) running its international arbitration. In fact a lot of US firms have large amounts of their international arbitration practices done through London given the prevalence of English law in many parts of the world

I mean, it probably also doesn't hurt that the LCIA is there, which is one of the pre-eminent global arbitration centres and there is already a really strong offering for insurance and shipping arbitrations in London too. AFAIK about the barristers however, it tends to only be those who aren't doing that well go in house as newly qualifieds. The line between law firms and independent practice is becoming more blurred, for sure, but you can still earn so much more at a far earlier stage at the bar if you're good enough to get into a commercial set. Before I decided to focus on becoming a solicitor I did a few mini-pupillages and this one barrister I shadowed at a mid-ranking London chambers that does commercial work bragged that he made over £150k in his first year of tenancy while still taking the entire month of August off. It was a real eye-opener! I almost didn't believe him until I saw the costs order on the case I was observing...

 

[law1999]

Does anyone have experience of Kennedys' strength based TC interview with an associate? Would be very grateful to receive any tips

 

[Jessica Booker]

Hey guys anyone done a security watchdog pre employment back ground check? It asks for past addresses - unsure of level of specificity. Like do they really want every address I've ever been at in my life or just the major ones where was paying rent for a few months at least. Any ideas?

There is usually a timeframe they give you - this could be anything from 3-10 years.

But they will need any address you have been formally registered to within that timeframe (e.g. academic term addresses, parents address, year abroad addresses etc).

 

[C]

Sorry! I got distracted and just saw this now. They’re not difficult but I found them very time pressured. There’s a lot to check, especially as Georgina said when numbers are involved, and there’s barely enough time.

How did you find them?

no worries! Just did them. Yes the error checking one was super time pressured, I definitely fumbled and answered two questions totally randomly cos I ran out of time :/ I strangely enjoyed the assessment though hahaha

 

[Jessica Booker]

Thanks

what's the benchmark for 'formally registered' - if there's many different addresses on a year abroad would they all need to be included?

Anything that isn't a holiday or staying with someone informally for a short period of time.