TCLA Vacation Scheme Applications Discussion Thread 2024-25

[ohnoselim]

side note has anyone heard back from CRS (london office) after VI

 

[Andrei Radu]

Hello all! I have a vac scheme coming up soon and was wondering if someone could please point me towards any previous threads or advise on any key tips on converting it into a TC. I'm not sure where to look and would really appreciate any help )))

Hi @arando I have linked here a thread where this topic was discussed in a lot of depth by forum members. I will also quote bellow a number of posts with useful advice to consider.

General themes why I have seen people not convert their VS to TC:

Arrogance/over confidence - it’s important to be confident on schemes but there are some candidates who just seem to think they are better than the rest of their cohort and that they will convert.

Lack of interest in the work - not asking questions, doing the work to a basic level, not asking for feedback or follow up conversations.

Spending too much time networking - too many coffee catch ups at the expense of doing work for their department

Over committing - saying yes to everything and then realising they don’t have enough time to do the things they have said they would.

Bad mouthing/manipulation: either talking bad of others (even at other firms) or trying to use their other experiences as a bit of a power trip (for instance bringing their other schemes/offers into conversations when there is no need to).

Not asking for guidance on their work: leading to spending too much time or having too many mistakes in their work

Hi @Lalis, to list a few of my top VS conversion tips:

• Speak with people at the firm (particularly graduate recruitment, recruitment partners, and trainees) to find out what are the most important assessment criteria for conversion. Different firms have different policies - for instance, in my case conversion at Slaughter and May was 100% determined by the final TC interview and written task, at Willkie it was mostly determined by the quality of your work and your integration in the firm's culture, at Milbank it was a combination of the final assessment and the impression you left on people on your team. To maximize conversion chances, you should modify your approach to match the factors emphasized by each firm.
• Take notes: as you go through the vacation scheme, at the end of each day, write down a short summary of what you did: who did you meet and what did you learn from them, what tasks did you work on, what sessions did you attend etc. As you approach the final interview, this will help you with being reflecting about the experience and showing that you have taken all the opportunities the firm offered.
• Try to meet as many people as possible, particularly in your department, but do not overdo it. Of course, it is great to integrate yourself as much as you can and to make as many people as possible notice you. However, you should not be spending every second of the day inviting people for coffee chats. Firstly, there are many other things you should be doing, like getting involved in different workstreams, attending sessions, and deepening your relationship with people you have already met, such as your supervisor. Secondly, as you will know, lawyers are often very stressed and have very little free time on their hands. Most will accept coffee chat requests, but they will appreciate if you do not waste their time by asking to meet only with a view of getting them to potentially put in a good word for you. Thus, I would advise you to always have a genuine reason for meeting someone. That does not need to necessarily be work-related - you can simply ask for a coffee chat because you want to introduce yourself and get to know people in the firm - but you should be upfront about it. Furthermore, try to get an idea from your supervisor as to who is more and less busy at the moment and avoid targeting the former.
• Mirror the attitude of those around you, and know when to be more relaxed: a crucial element of succeeding in many vacation schemes is to be able to build rapport with a few important people - particularly your supervisor, one or two lawyers you will get to work more with, and the recruitment partners. Try to read the attitude and expectations of those people and do not always attempt to impress them. In my experience, the people who ended up not converting tended to be the slightly overbearing ones who wanted to be constantly seen. Sometimes, such as at an event over drinks or at a lunch, people will want to simply relax a bit and forget about work. Other times, they may be too busy and stressed to want to engage with you about something serious. They could and also many times do want to take a slightly more lighthearted approach when talking about their work, so try not to seem like you are taking yourself too seriously. From what I have seen, people more often fail in adapting to these circumstances rather that when adapting to more formal dynamics.

 

[rapunzel]

Has anyone heard back from NRF post AC or still waiting & does anyone know how long they take to respond usually? I’d really appreciate any insights

From what I heard from grad rec is that I think everyone will hear back at the same time which will be end of March ish.

 

[Andrei Radu]

Someone please offer some advice...

I was planning on applying for Burges Salmon's direct TC, however I am unsure whether it may be wiser to wait and apply for the vac scheme when it opens up in autumn.

I don't think I'd be able to apply for the upcoming vac schemes if I get rejected from this TC app... very confused and would very much appreciate literally any bit of advice

From what I know the default rule is that the summer applications are still considered to be a different cycle to the one that starts in Autumn, so I think generally you would not have an issue with reapplying. However, it may be worthwhile to take a look at the firm's FAQ on applications as they may have addressed this point directly. If not, and if you are still worried about this, you could send graduate recruitment a short email asking about this. There is no possible downside to that - if anything, it shows a proactive attitude and attention to detail.

 

[VacSchemer]

From what I heard from grad rec is that I think everyone will hear back at the same time which will be end of March ish.

This might be the case but I already know a few with offers as well.

 

[wantatc]

I’m sorry 😔 I’m in the same boat. Do you think you’ll ask for feedback? It’s disappointing that they haven’t offered it

thought it was so disappointing, 5 week wait after AC and then no call etc just generic email. I also then asked for feedback and they said not till end of May - lucky escape i’m feeling

 

[Andrei Radu]

I've been told for an upcoming AC that the written exercise will be handwritten, do you know if this could entail a full case study type task, or maybe proofreading? Just curious how much can be done handwritten these days, or if you've ever come across this? @Jessica Booker

I had an AC with a written exercise which was (quite to my surprise at the time) in handwritten format. It a included a proofreading task but also a more case-study type one, with a bundle of documents which we had to read through, summarize, and then argue for a recommendation based on them. My advice would be to just prepare as you would for normal of written exercise, as I do not think the handwritten format is much of a bar for any of the different types of possible exercises.

 

[lawtc2026]

Howden PFO

What stage were you at?

 

[User5678]

RWK Goodman vi - didn’t find the questions too difficult but 20 secs to read the question and prepare??? Like let me breathe, give me a minute at least😭

 

[Andrei Radu]

Is it easier to obtain partnership in some kind of firms in comparison to others (US vs UK, cf mid market firms) ? Also what is the realistic chance of making equity partner at different firms? @Jessica Booker @Ram Sabaratnam @Amma Usman

If you are interested in just making partner, the easiest firm to do that at should be Kirkland. This might strike you as difficult to believe, but it is likely true, as Kirkland is known to have a policy to automatically promote every associate at 6 PQE to the status of non equity partner (NEP). It has been quite a successful business model as it allows them to keep the NEPs on exactly the same Cravath payscale that all top US firms have to pay at the relevant PQE level while also (i) enabling the firm to charge higher rates to clients (as many clients will simply be willing to pay more when they see the word 'partner', without enquiring much as to the promotion policies at the firm) and (ii) keep senior associates for longer at the firm without giving them equity in the business. As a result of Kirkland's success other firms have increasingly been starting to add non-equity partnership tiers as well, although I do not know of any that does it automatically.

I think in most cases a promotion to NEP at other firms is done either: (i) as a preliminary step in the path to equity, giving the firm a period to test out the person for a period, while also potentially waiting for equity places to open as a result of retirements; or (ii) in a similar vein to a counsel role, giving recognition to a practitioner for the highest level of technical expertise but who does not want/is not given a business development role and ownership of the firm. At firms besides Kirkland it normally comes with slightly higher pay than that for 8PQE associates (but never comes near equity partner compensation figures) and better flexibility around hours/WFH. While reaching a NEP tier is certainly difficult and requires a consistent track record of excellent technical ability over many years, it is not thought of as being very "competitive". This is in the sense that most people do not get/retain a NEP role not because they want one but are not given it by a firm, but that they either do not last enough in the profession to be considered for it (the primary reason, as big law has a very high attrition rate) or because they want equity partnership (as they stand to earn anywhere from 2-5 times what they would as a NEP even as a non-rainmaker).

The truly difficult task is making equity, and it is apparently only getting harder nowadays - firms are competing so fiercely for rainmakers on lateral hiring markets, and a high average PEP is the ultimate currency. As such, firms are guarding their equity tiers jealously and getting promoted is a feat that is more and more connected to business development outlook. Essentially, there is a tend towards a "winner takes it all" market, and this comes at a cost: those $7m+ average PEPs and $20m compensation packages for stars would not be possible with the promotion rates common 20 or 30 years ago.

Now, to come back to your question about which firms it is easier to make equity partner at: as Jessica said, there is no absolute answer. An argument can be made that the higher the average PEP of a firm, the more difficult will it be - a firm will need to see a significantly stronger business case for you to justify a dilutive effect on profit pools of $2 million (which is around what many junior partners will earn at V10 US firms) than of between 500-700k (which would be more the range for at midmarket UK firms). I have also been told by some people that making equity at a V10-V20 firm (who are generally the most profitable non-boutique firms in the world) is more difficult than in other places, particularly in a non-US office. However, my anecdotal evidence is limited to that effect, and I know it is also the case that those firms are able to charge significantly higher rates than rivals. This might mean that while it is indeed true that a top US/MC firm will need to see a stronger business case in your favour than a midmarket UK firm, the same level of business development skills that would have been needed for promotion at the midmarket firm could naturally lead to a stronger business case for promotion if you worked at a US/MC firm before (as you will have had regular contact and the opportunity to develop relationships with clients that would bring in higher revenues).

 

[Andrei Radu]

Hey guys, just wanna reach out for some advice. I had a TI with a firm today, and the next stage is a two-day AC. Unfortunately, the first day of AC clashes with my interview with SM, but the first day is just an unassessed insight day to prepare us for the next day, so I might be able to miss it. I don’t know the outcome of today’s TI yet, but should I reschedule my SM interview just in case?

If I do reschedule, should I mention it’s due to another AC or give a different reason? Thanks

@Jessica Booker @Andrei Radu @Ram Sabaratnam @Amma Usman

I think it might make sense to just send an email to SM asking whether you could reschedule for a later day. I would advise you not to mention the reason or that if you to to keep it vague (something like 'personal circumstances' perhaps?) as just mentioning another possible AC is not sufficiently impressive to justify the potential perception of the firm as having a lower interest in them (particularly since SM seems to me to be a firm that really cares about recruiting people that are sold on its model). If you do that, I do not see any downside with your SM. If you do not do it, there exists a possibility that you only hear back with the TI outcome too late for SM to be able to reschedule.

 

[floral.tcla]

hi, a bit random but I have a university dinner with alumni tomorrow (with v high-ranked people eg partners at mc/sc firms, barristers, future trainees). how can I best prepare? I've already retraced their linkedin profiles and chatgpt'd some questions to ask them, but I find it hard to make good conversation with people/being personable/what the etiquette normally is for these things? thanks

 

[yuk0n]

hi, a bit random but I have a university dinner with alumni tomorrow (with v high-ranked people eg partners at mc/sc firms, barristers, future trainees). how can I best prepare? I've already retraced their linkedin profiles and chatgpt'd some questions to ask them, but I find it hard to make good conversation with people/being personable/what the etiquette normally is for these things? thanks

I have been to a bunch of these sorts of events- honestly the best thing to do is simply be normal and polite. If you have something you want to ask about then you should lead the convo towards that but I wouldn't shoehorn in a random careers question for the sake of it because that is going to come across as unnatural and a bit odd; you need to note that before they're a law firm partner etc. they're a person. Ask about their work for sure and try to take an interest, but I definitely wouldn't say something like "yeah I've preed your linkedin in advance of this dinner and know you did XYZ" because that's a bit scary lol💀
There are some little etiquette bits to keep in mind (handshakes, particularly for older people) but otherwise I'd say there's really nothing to be nervous about try your best to enjoy it!

 

[A worried graduate]

What stage were you at?

Post VI

The VI was a nightmare

 

[A worried graduate]

From the people i have talked to I can see that they are taking a holistic approach.

Holistic in what sense?

 

[rapunzel]

This might be the case but I already know a few with offers as well.

Oh rlly idk then! 😭 mixed messages

 

[mulan0]

What do group exercises at AC’s tend to entail? Is it negotiation exercises as that’s all I’ve heard so far and how would they work? Secondly how is best to prepare? Any help is appreciated

 

[trainee4u]

What do group exercises at AC’s tend to entail? Is it negotiation exercises as that’s all I’ve heard so far and how would they work? Secondly how is best to prepare? Any help is appreciated

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TCLA Vacation Scheme Applications Discussion Thread 2024-25

Tricky trying to get the motivation to write any applications after several post interview PFOs and getting ghosted by every other firm... do not have the energy for this, why does even trying to write an application reduce me to tears atm? I am sorry to hear you are feeling this way. Just know...

www.thecorporatelawacademy.com

 

[mulan0]

you might find this useful

TCLA Vacation Scheme Applications Discussion Thread 2024-25

Tricky trying to get the motivation to write any applications after several post interview PFOs and getting ghosted by every other firm... do not have the energy for this, why does even trying to write an application reduce me to tears atm? I am sorry to hear you are feeling this way. Just know...

www.thecorporatelawacademy.com

Yes thankyou so much!!

 

[loe]

Has anyone done the VI for Stephenson Harwood in the past?