General Discussion Thread 2020-21

[cmaj]

Hi all!!!! Just had a weird experience with the WGCTA. I've done quite a lot of these for other firms and passed them this season, and scored highly on the practices I've done. I just completed the test for CMS and when I came to the evaluating arguments section (which is usually my highest scoring area in the practices), it seemed like 10/12 arguments were 'Argument Strong'. Could this ever be the case? I had 10 minutes left to complete the test and found myself using most of that time trying to desperately find reasons why the arguments were weak so that I could change them and equalise my responses!

Does anyone have any understanding on this, and whether the tests would typically be structured to have a balanced amount of answers in each section? Also, are the test questions randomised for each person? I feel a little confused about it...

Thanks in advance

 

[Jessica Booker]

Hi all!!!! Just had a weird experience with the WGCTA. I've done quite a lot of these for other firms and passed them this season, and scored highly on the practices I've done. I just completed the test for CMS and when I came to the evaluating arguments section (which is usually my highest scoring area in the practices), it seemed like 10/12 arguments were 'Argument Strong'. Could this ever be the case? I had 10 minutes left to complete the test and found myself using most of that time trying to desperately find reasons why the arguments were weak so that I could change them and equalise my responses!

Does anyone have any understanding on this, and whether the tests would typically be structured to have a balanced amount of answers in each section? Also, are the test questions randomised for each person? I feel a little confused about it...

Thanks in advance

it’s not impossible if it’s a random sample from a question bank.

 

[Jessica Booker]

If anyone is struggling getting on to TLT’s graduate recruitment website ahead of the deadline tomorrow, just go to their vacancies page instead:

http://jobsearch.tltsolicitors.com/jobs/search

You can search by training contract or vacation scheme in the filter system

 

[TChopeful2021]

Hi guys. I’m thinking about taking a break from all applications so I can focus on my grades. The applications are very time consuming and have taken a serious toll on my mental health; I don't want to risk it also affecting my academic performance. Instead, I hope to take a gap year and focus on applications once I graduate.

Even though I am really struggling to simultaneously look for employment whilst maintaining good grades, most people I've met either secured their TC during uni or whilst working. I don't know if taking this process very slowly and step-by-step could be frowned upon in any way and been seen as lacking proactiveness? Has anyone taken this approach or is there anything I should take into consideration? Thank you.

 

[M1999]

Hi guys. I’m thinking about taking a break from all applications so I can focus on my grades. The applications are very time consuming and have taken a serious toll on my mental health; I don't want to risk it also affecting my academic performance. Instead, I hope to take a gap year and focus on applications once I graduate.

Even though I am really struggling to simultaneously look for employment whilst maintaining good grades, most people I've met either secured their TC during uni or whilst working. I don't know if taking this process very slowly and step-by-step could be frowned upon in any way and been seen as lacking proactiveness? Has anyone taken this approach or is there anything I should take into consideration? Thank you.

The worst thing to do in this process is compare yourself to others. Some people are just luckier in this process than others, it doesn't mean you don't work hard or they work a lot harder than you, they just managed to secure a TC at a shorter time frame than you. It may be a positive thing, not everyone will enjoy coming out of school & university and straight into a graduate role. I am for one glad I am going to have at least one year in a professional working environment before I start a TC (whenever that will be!). It may seem like everyone you know has a TC but theres a lot more people who are graduates and there is simply nothing wrong with that.

 

[Naomi U]

Hi guys. I’m thinking about taking a break from all applications so I can focus on my grades. The applications are very time consuming and have taken a serious toll on my mental health; I don't want to risk it also affecting my academic performance. Instead, I hope to take a gap year and focus on applications once I graduate.

Even though I am really struggling to simultaneously look for employment whilst maintaining good grades, most people I've met either secured their TC during uni or whilst working. I don't know if taking this process very slowly and step-by-step could be frowned upon in any way and been seen as lacking proactiveness? Has anyone taken this approach or is there anything I should take into consideration? Thank you.

Hi @LilLauLLB

I completely understand how you feel. During my applications last year (my second year of uni), I definitely felt very overwhelmed and struggled significantly to balance applications with uni and of course my actual life! It definitely can get very overwhelming so I understand how you feel.

I think my advice would be to focus on you. As much as it is tempting to compare yourself to other people, this does not add any value to you. There is no perfect time. I know some people that applied in their third year, after graduation and even some that applied after law school, all who managed to secure tcs at amazing firms. So regarding the issue of time, this should be the least of worries and in no way will this reflect badly on you.

Do keep in mind that the application season will end by February for most firms, so I think it's important to remember that this feeling will not last forever. I remember how overwhelmed and anxious I was and then it just becomes a distant memory.

However, if you do feel like you need to stop then stop. At the end of the day, you'll need your grades to begin your training contract and more importantly, your mental health and happiness should always be the priority. You will be in a better place to apply if you feel more in control of your life. If you feel like this will be post graduation then so be it!

Ultimately you will be the best judge of your feelings but there is absolutely nothing wrong with taking a break.

Hope this helps & best of luck with everything!

 

[Jen E C]

Hi guys. I’m thinking about taking a break from all applications so I can focus on my grades. The applications are very time consuming and have taken a serious toll on my mental health; I don't want to risk it also affecting my academic performance. Instead, I hope to take a gap year and focus on applications once I graduate.

Even though I am really struggling to simultaneously look for employment whilst maintaining good grades, most people I've met either secured their TC during uni or whilst working. I don't know if taking this process very slowly and step-by-step could be frowned upon in any way and been seen as lacking proactiveness? Has anyone taken this approach or is there anything I should take into consideration? Thank you.

I did the exact thing you are considering and got a TC if that's of any comfort to you! I didn't apply for anything until my final year of uni, but then stopped once I realised my grades weren't as good as I knew they could be, even though they were objectively fine. From my perspective, I wanted to leave uni with grades I was happy with, considering the amount of money and time spent. I made this decision after having an AC four days before an exam, and the difficulty between splitting preparation for both and not being satisfied with either result wasn't worth it for me (I didn't get the vac and my mental space was so bad in the exam as a result, so I didn't get the grade I knew I was capable of and had frankly worked all semester for).

I spent the year after graduating doing a part time job and spent the rest of the time in the library focusing on apps. I'm grateful I was able to stay at home and not have anything be a worry beyond personal spending, which isn't strictly a necessity. Ironically, even though I had more time, I ended up submitting fewer apps. However, of 5 apps, I got 2 vacs and 1 TC offer.

In 3 of the interviews I did, my approach was never questioned. When asked 'tell me about yourself', I would briefly explain at the end my strategy, just to bring them up to speed. I explained I wanted the part time job for the flexibility and to let me fully commit to apps and open days/events etc this cycle. If anything, the interviewers seem to completely understand and I never felt judged. Definitely in the case of one interviewer, he seemed to agree with my thinking and I think it demonstrated my commitment to commercial law even more.

Do what's right for you - there's no right formula and in this day and age, people are more aware/understanding than ever that there are a million different routes someone might take before ending up in a firm.

 

[Zoo]

Hi guys. I’m thinking about taking a break from all applications so I can focus on my grades. The applications are very time consuming and have taken a serious toll on my mental health; I don't want to risk it also affecting my academic performance. Instead, I hope to take a gap year and focus on applications once I graduate.

Even though I am really struggling to simultaneously look for employment whilst maintaining good grades, most people I've met either secured their TC during uni or whilst working. I don't know if taking this process very slowly and step-by-step could be frowned upon in any way and been seen as lacking proactiveness? Has anyone taken this approach or is there anything I should take into consideration? Thank you.

I agree with everything that’s been said above. Your mental health is more important than your applications so if you need a break, you should take one. You also want your grades to be as high as you can get them so it’s a good idea to focus on them right now.

I also found it really difficult to complete applications while studying and working. I got my TC after I graduated. I was temping at the time and actively rejected work opportunities so I could spend all of January on applications. A lot of people aren’t able to do that, especially if they’re studying so I understand how difficult it is to do applications on top of everything else. Your applications will probably be better having taken a break instead of trying to juggle them with other commitments.

Firms won’t look down on you taking the process slowly, as you say. I secured my TC in my third cycle and I was asked only once about my previous two cycles. I was honest about my struggles, but backed up my response by saying that my difficulties allowed me to regroup and be ultra focused in my apps the third time round. They were perfectly happy with my answer and offered me the VS. There’s absolutely no problem with taking time out to focus on other priorities.

 

[TChopeful2021]

The worst thing to do in this process is compare yourself to others. Some people are just luckier in this process than others, it doesn't mean you don't work hard or they work a lot harder than you, they just managed to secure a TC at a shorter time frame than you. It may be a positive thing, not everyone will enjoy coming out of school & university and straight into a graduate role. I am for one glad I am going to have at least one year in a professional working environment before I start a TC (whenever that will be!). It may seem like everyone you know has a TC but theres a lot more people who are graduates and there is simply nothing wrong with that.

Hi @LilLauLLB

I completely understand how you feel. During my applications last year (my second year of uni), I definitely felt very overwhelmed and struggled significantly to balance applications with uni and of course my actual life! It definitely can get very overwhelming so I understand how you feel.

I think my advice would be to focus on you. As much as it is tempting to compare yourself to other people, this does not add any value to you. There is no perfect time. I know some people that applied in their third year, after graduation and even some that applied after law school, all who managed to secure tcs at amazing firms. So regarding the issue of time, this should be the least of worries and in no way will this reflect badly on you.

Do keep in mind that the application season will end by February for most firms, so I think it's important to remember that this feeling will not last forever. I remember how overwhelmed and anxious I was and then it just becomes a distant memory.

However, if you do feel like you need to stop then stop. At the end of the day, you'll need your grades to begin your training contract and more importantly, your mental health and happiness should always be the priority. You will be in a better place to apply if you feel more in control of your life. If you feel like this will be post graduation then so be it!

Ultimately you will be the best judge of your feelings but there is absolutely nothing wrong with taking a break.

Hope this helps & best of luck with everything!

Hi! I admit my perspective can be very narrow as I am surrounded by students, so all I hear are students receiving TC offers one after another while I'm struggling to even catch up on my readings. I really appreciate you both for taking the time to respond; it really gave me the confidence to take things slower and at my own speed.

I did the exact thing you are considering and got a TC if that's of any comfort to you! I didn't apply for anything until my final year of uni, but then stopped once I realised my grades weren't as good as I knew they could be, even though they were objectively fine. From my perspective, I wanted to leave uni with grades I was happy with, considering the amount of money and time spent. I made this decision after having an AC four days before an exam, and the difficulty between splitting preparation for both and not being satisfied with either result wasn't worth it for me (I didn't get the vac and my mental space was so bad in the exam as a result, so I didn't get the grade I knew I was capable of and had frankly worked all semester for).

I spent the year after graduating doing a part time job and spent the rest of the time in the library focusing on apps. I'm grateful I was able to stay at home and not have anything be a worry beyond personal spending, which isn't strictly a necessity. Ironically, even though I had more time, I ended up submitting fewer apps. However, of 5 apps, I got 2 vacs and 1 TC offer.

In 3 of the interviews I did, my approach was never questioned. When asked 'tell me about yourself', I would briefly explain at the end my strategy, just to bring them up to speed. I explained I wanted the part time job for the flexibility and to let me fully commit to apps and open days/events etc this cycle. If anything, the interviewers seem to completely understand and I never felt judged. Definitely in the case of one interviewer, he seemed to agree with my thinking and I think it demonstrated my commitment to commercial law even more.

Do what's right for you - there's no right formula and in this day and age, people are more aware/understanding than ever that there are a million different routes someone might take before ending up in a firm.

Hi Jennifer, thank you for sharing your story. I am in the exact same boat right now as I have ACs and exams scheduled very close together. My grades mean a lot to me so I think taking a step back to focus is the right choice. It is very reassuring to hear that firms are not against this approach.

 

[TChopeful2021]

I agree with everything that’s been said above. Your mental health is more important than your applications so if you need a break, you should take one. You also want your grades to be as high as you can get them so it’s a good idea to focus on them right now.

I also found it really difficult to complete applications while studying and working. I got my TC after I graduated. I was temping at the time and actively rejected work opportunities so I could spend all of January on applications. A lot of people aren’t able to do that, especially if they’re studying so I understand how difficult it is to do applications on top of everything else. Your applications will probably be better having taken a break instead of trying to juggle them with other commitments.

Firms won’t look down on you taking the process slowly, as you say. I secured my TC in my third cycle and I was asked only once about my previous two cycles. I was honest about my struggles, but backed up my response by saying that my difficulties allowed me to regroup and be ultra focused in my apps the third time round. They were perfectly happy with my answer and offered me the VS. There’s absolutely no problem with taking time out to focus on other priorities.

Thank you NicN, this was what I needed to hear. It is difficult to say no to applications and watch the deadlines pass, but I think regrouping and prioritising my grades is the best approach for me.

 

[Jacob Miller]

Hi guys. I’m thinking about taking a break from all applications so I can focus on my grades. The applications are very time consuming and have taken a serious toll on my mental health; I don't want to risk it also affecting my academic performance. Instead, I hope to take a gap year and focus on applications once I graduate.

Even though I am really struggling to simultaneously look for employment whilst maintaining good grades, most people I've met either secured their TC during uni or whilst working. I don't know if taking this process very slowly and step-by-step could be frowned upon in any way and been seen as lacking proactiveness? Has anyone taken this approach or is there anything I should take into consideration? Thank you.

Hi @LilLauLLB

First off, well done for sharing this, it's quite a brave thing to post about.

It's a hugely personal thing, and ultimately I would say that you've got to trust your gut and do what your body and mind are telling you is the right thing to do.

Speaking from personal experience, I'm a prime example of what to absolutely not do in these situations.
I got a penultimate year TC offer, I own & operate 2 companies while studying (now final year LLB) and have done since late-2018. That might sound all well and good on the outside, but I know for a fact there are times (especially when I was in the midst of applications) where I completely burned myself out and neglected my own health in a major way (see my 'Car Crash Interviews' thread in the Interview Discussion forum).
I broke my back in 3 places in 2018, 2 weeks before my first app cycle for first year schemes would have opened. Instead of taking the time I needed to properly recover, I set up a tutoring business pretty much from hospital (I was unable to do my old job), tried to make applications (I only got one away in the entire app cycle), still travelled to uni every day. I literally ended up in hospital again on death's door with septicaemia because I had neglected my wellbeing to the point of my system starting to shut down.
I absolutely burned myself out and it was one of the worst periods of my life to date. It was beyond short sighted and, in all honesty, it's probably set me back years in terms of actually recovering from those injuries and caused a lot of other damage along the way.

I don't mention any of this because I'm proud of it, retrospectively that period was filled with some of the poorest decision making of my entire life, but I mention it because I absolutely implore you all not to go about things that way. Uni, jobs, applications, etc are never as important as your health and happiness.

 

[cmaj]

it’s not impossible if it’s a random sample from a question bank.

Thanks Jessica. Is it usually a random sample?

 

[Jessica Booker]

Thanks Jessica. Is it usually a random sample?

yes - otherwise you could share answers with other people.

Question banks vary in size, but can be over 250 questions. The size usually depends on whether the WG test is bespoke to the firm or an off the shelf product.

Questions may seem similar but doesn’t mean they are identical (especially in terms of answer too).

 

[Lily721]

Lots of different ways this is done. Alphabetical is possible but isn’t a very good way of doing it (tends to favour different nationalities).

They may rank it on something like test scores (if they have used that).

Could just be completely random.

They still may review by when you applied, but just review after applications are received.

I thought that it means that the firm would look at the applications as they come in or by applications received within a certain period of time. Because firms which are reviewing apps on a rolling basis always tell candidates to apply as early as possible

 

[Jessica Booker]

I thought that it means that the firm would look at the applications as they come in or by applications received within a certain period of time. Because firms which are reviewing apps on a rolling basis always tell candidates to apply as early as possible

The response to the post was about non-rolling recruitment rather than rolling.

 

[Lily721]

The response to the post was about non-rolling recruitment rather than rolling.

oh yeah, sorry. I totally misread that

 

[Lisa Lowe]

Has anyone got any tips for the situation judgements tests? Is this something you can massively practice like the WG?

Are firms seeking a specific combination of strengths, as listed in the feedback report you receive.

 

[cmaj]

yes - otherwise you could share answers with other people.

Question banks vary in size, but can be over 250 questions. The size usually depends on whether the WG test is bespoke to the firm or an off the shelf product.

Questions may seem similar but doesn’t mean they are identical (especially in terms of answer too).

Thank you so much. I thought that would be the case, but so often I've encountered the same questions in WG tests for different firms... to the point where it felt unusual to see new questions in the test for CMS!

 

[Jessica Booker]

Y

Thank you so much. I thought that would be the case, but so often I've encountered the same questions in WG tests for different firms... to the point where it felt unusual to see new questions in the test for CMS!

Questions may seem very similar in terms of information/statements but have minute differences or slightly different takes on the information or are actually assessing different competencies within the WG.

 

[Dheepa]

Has anyone got any tips for the situation judgements tests? Is this something you can massively practice like the WG?

Are firms seeking a specific combination of strengths, as listed in the feedback report you receive.

Hi Lisa,

Unfortunately I think SJT's is pretty unpredictable and super hit or miss sometimes. That being said,

1. HSF have a great practice test (I especially love this one because it tells you the reasoning behind the correct and wrong answers) https://careers.herbertsmithfreehills.com/uk/grads/what-we-look-for
2. A&O have this sample question here (hyperlinked)
3. Go on the firm's GR website and really take the time to read the descriptions of what their looking for in trainee. I kept this window open a lot while doing SJT's because whenever I came across a particularly difficult question it helped to reflect on what I would do alongside what competencies the firm valued.
4. Jess also has some great advice here : https://www.thecorporatelawacademy.com/forum/threads/situational-judgement-tests.1729/