General Discussion Thread 2020-21

[Velikilawyer123]

No stats as such, but it ultimately pays off through several different ways. You need trainees to do a job, you train your own up which helps to retain culture better, and there can be additional costs of trying to hire people at a qualified level anyway.

The average graduate spends less than 15 months in their first job, so clearly firms do manage to keep trainees longer than average anyway, albeit because of the qualification system.

I think recruitment systems are sophisticated enough these days to get the vast majority of people who “learn” the system out of the process. I do think there are some candidates who genuinely think it is right for them and are successful because of that belief, but then quickly realise it isn’t. Jaysen could be one of those!

That's very interesting, I didn't know 15 months was the average for a first job. But as you said, the TC itself is a guaranteed 24 months, so it'd be interesting to see how long candidates would stay at their first firm if they went straight to an NQ-type role.

What about all the specificity firms look for when hiring candidates - for instance, I might be truly interested in cross-border work, yet most firms will want me to zoom in on something a bit more specific when justifying my motivation for applying to them, such as their approach to international clients, or secondments, etc., and then link it back to me. But from my perspective, none of that might matter - I just want an internationally recognised firm, and that might be 90% of my motivation, and I'd be roughly equally happy at any firm that offers that. Be it W&C, Dentons, NRF, or whoever else, they all equally fit my criteria. So for each one, I'll find a great story about how their specific approach to internationality appeals to me, I'll link it to my experiences, but ultimately that's all it will be - a story. How has the firm gauged anything from that, other than my ability to write a story?

 

[Jessica Booker]

That's very interesting, I didn't know 15 months was the average for a first job. But as you said, the TC itself is a guaranteed 24 months, so it'd be interesting to see how long candidates would stay at their first firm if they went straight to an NQ-type role.

What about all the specificity firms look for when hiring candidates - for instance, I might be truly interested in cross-border work, yet most firms will want me to zoom in on something a bit more specific when justifying my motivation for applying to them, such as their approach to international clients, or secondments, etc., and then link it back to me. But from my perspective, none of that might matter - I just want an internationally recognised firm, and that might be 90% of my motivation, and I'd be roughly equally happy at any firm that offers that. Be it W&C, Dentons, NRF, or whoever else, they all equally fit my criteria. So for each one, I'll find a great story about how their specific approach to internationality appeals to me, I'll link it to my experiences, but ultimately that's all it will be - a story. How has the firm gauged anything from that, other than my ability to write a story?

If it’s 90% of your motivations, that’s enough for the firm. The story isn’t the important part - it’s just the considered part.

 

[Velikilawyer123]

If it’s 90% of your motivations, that’s enough for the firm. The story isn’t the important part - it’s just the considered part.

But didn't we just mention at the event today that simply saying "I'm motivated to join firm X due to its international reach" likely isn't going to cut it because 1) there are many such firms, so why apply to this specific one and 2) many candidates will say that, it doesn't really stand out?

 

[arbitracion]

Got a few rejections today for WVS, feeling so pessimistic this application cycle. just so lost and feel like I'm getting rejected every corner

 

[Shirshe]

@Jessica Booker When a firm asks what "qualities" I possess that would make me a good trainee there, am I right in thinking that's not the same as the "skills" I posses to make a good trainee there? I view qualities as a bit more, I'm sure how to put it, inherent? Kind of like something I was born with, or at least had the capability to develop? Like I'd say my quality is if I'm attentive to detail, or communicative, or a natural team player. My skills, on the other hand, might be the ability to combine law with commercial considerations, or my ability to work under pressure.

Though now as I say / write it, they actually look much more similar than I thought... I'd appreciate any advice on this!

 

[Jessica Booker]

@Jessica Booker When a firm asks what "qualities" I possess that would make me a good trainee there, am I right in thinking that's not the same as the "skills" I posses to make a good trainee there? I view qualities as a bit more, I'm sure how to put it, inherent? Kind of like something I was born with, or at least had the capability to develop? Like I'd say my quality is if I'm attentive to detail, or communicative, or a natural team player. My skills, on the other hand, might be the ability to combine law with commercial considerations, or my ability to work under pressure.

Though now as I say / write it, they actually look much more similar than I thought... I'd appreciate any advice on this!

Yes, I’d agree with that. It’s not necessarily something you were born with but more your defaults - what strengths/characteristics you tend to rely on, rather than the processes you have acquired along the way that you are good at. There will be cross over though - you could say you were resilient and that might help you work well under pressure (for example).

 

[PP27]

For NRF, would you talk about open days/encounters with the firm in the work experience section? There are only 4 opportunities to write 250 words, then you have to write the rest of your work experience in 200 words

 

[Jessica Booker]

For NRF, would you talk about open days/encounters with the firm in the work experience section? There are only 4 opportunities to write 250 words, then you have to write the rest of your work experience in 200 words

I suspect you would have better work experience example to pull upon than open days, and that potentially open days could be referenced elsewhere in an application.

 

[WannabeSolicitor24]

For NRF, would you talk about open days/encounters with the firm in the work experience section? There are only 4 opportunities to write 250 words, then you have to write the rest of your work experience in 200 words

I was told by NRF Grad Rec last year to use that 200 words box to talk about extra-curricular stuff; I would possibly mention it in the cover letter if you have other WE you want to talk about?

 

[PP27]

Thank you that's helpful. Also, for the NRF application, in the section where I fill out my grades, there is a drop box where you can only pick one number out of 100. My university grading system was different, where for each exam I would get 2 marks out of 100 which contributed towards my final result. For example, for one paper, my transcript says that I received "64, 70 / 100". How would I include this in my application? There is no additional space to write further modules and have tried to contact grad recruitment

 

[Jaysen]

Hi @Jessica Booker, I've been thinking about what you mentioned at the event today - that law firms spend a significant amount of money on training / hiring lawyers, and that they generally don't start making their money back until the lawyer is around 3 PQE. That's quite the investment and it totally makes sense that firms would want to hire only the brightest and most motivated candidates.

But I'm wondering, do you have any information / statistics on whether it all pays off, in the end? Do lawyers have a lower rate of leaving their law firm than professionals in other sectors have of leaving their employers?

I've heard before that 2-3 PQE is peak time for lawyers exiting firms, typically going either to competitors or in-house in a corporation, but I don't have any data on how many former trainees actually stay with the firm long-term, perhaps even making partner.

And kind of in the same vein as this, do you think it's truly the best / most long-term motivated candidates that are successful in securing TCs, or just the ones who have learnt to play the application / interview game the best? We hear constantly, on TCLA and other places, that the application process is a skill you can learn. But if it's something you can learn, how do we know an applicant's story is genuine, and not just "learnt" to be presented in a way most attractive to the interviewer?

Apologies if this seems like a bit of an odd take, but what you said just got me thinking about whether this whole complex recruiting process really produces the best candidates for firms.

I think the points you raise here are really interesting. Here's my take:

For some reason, when it comes to the job process, people sometimes have the perception that being successful at applications and interviews is an innate ability - you either have it or you don't. But we don't have that same attitudes with so many other fields, from exams to sports. You have to learn the skills.

Application and interview technique are skills you can learn in the sense that you can learn how to clearly communicate your motivations and 'sell' your experiences. That doesn't mean a candidate isn't being genuine; they just needed to learn how to draw out the best aspects of their experiences and consider why they might actually be a fantastic asset to a firm. I think that then becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Many people underestimate how fast they'll improve once they're actually in practice.

Similarly, for a variety of reasons, many people - particularly if they don't come from a certain background - have never been taught that it's okay to be confident and think deeply about the achievements they have. Similarly, they've never really been taught how to answer questions about themselves, their motivations and their competencies, or how to stay composed when answering questions outside of their comfort zone. These are all skills that can be taught, but it doesn't mean the candidate doesn't have to do the legwork to begin with.

I've no doubt that some people do get through the system by simply learning what they need to know. Unless the candidate is exceptionally convincing at being fake, I think that's mostly down to the interviewer though. Good interviewers will steer away from the rehearsed stuff and push candidates outside their domain of knowledge. They seek to find out what a candidate's genuine reasons are. If a candidate still gets through anyway, they were probably actually just a good candidate.

 

[Jaysen]

That's very interesting, I didn't know 15 months was the average for a first job. But as you said, the TC itself is a guaranteed 24 months, so it'd be interesting to see how long candidates would stay at their first firm if they went straight to an NQ-type role.

What about all the specificity firms look for when hiring candidates - for instance, I might be truly interested in cross-border work, yet most firms will want me to zoom in on something a bit more specific when justifying my motivation for applying to them, such as their approach to international clients, or secondments, etc., and then link it back to me. But from my perspective, none of that might matter - I just want an internationally recognised firm, and that might be 90% of my motivation, and I'd be roughly equally happy at any firm that offers that. Be it W&C, Dentons, NRF, or whoever else, they all equally fit my criteria. So for each one, I'll find a great story about how their specific approach to internationality appeals to me, I'll link it to my experiences, but ultimately that's all it will be - a story. How has the firm gauged anything from that, other than my ability to write a story?

In some ways, yes, I think it is just your ability to write a story. If you genuinely don't care what firm it is and just want an international firm, that's fine. As with any job though, if you make statements that made it sound like you just wanted a job, and that you'd be equally happy at any rival company, that's going to give the recruiter doubts. It would imply that you either haven't thought about your motivations deeply enough or that you wouldn't hesitate to jump ship if another opportunity came up. The company would rather hire people who actually wanted to apply to their particular firm and could really justify this.

I don't think it's a bad thing that much of this process is about knowing how to tell a story. Learning how to present yourself convincingly is a huge part of being successful in all aspects of life.

 

[Deleted member 2707]

Hi guys! I'm preparing for a VI and I'm wondering what are the key competencies I should find examples for. I currently have

1. Teamwork
2. Leadership
3. Resilience
4. Attention to detail
5. Willingness to help others
6. Flexibility
7. Interpersonal skills

Is there other common ones I should focus on?

 

[Tintin06]

@Jessica Booker is having a ball photo on a LinkedIn profile a no no? Thanks in advance.

 

[Jessica Booker]

Hi guys! I'm preparing for a VI and I'm wondering what are the key competencies I should find examples for. I currently have

1. Teamwork
2. Leadership
3. Resilience
4. Attention to detail
5. Willingness to help others
6. Flexibility
7. Interpersonal skills

Is there other common ones I should focus on?

Which firm is it for?

 

[Jessica Booker]

@Jessica Booker is having a ball photo on a LinkedIn profile a no no? Thanks in advance.

Depends on the ball photo - if you are passed out drunk in the corner, then definitely not (that might have just been my ball though )

If it is a cropped face and shoulder picture (rather than full body shot) of you at the start of the evening, then that should be fine. The only thing I would avoid is if you are a woman and have bare shoulders in the ball picture, it probably isn't one to use.

 

[M1999]

Someone told me on TSR that if you haven’t sent off summer applications before mid December you have a very slim chance. With respect to rolling, how true is this statement? It seems to me that currently most firms are recruiting for the winter VS, and I’m guessing will start reviewing the summer/spring when they have finished recruiting and organising which is in a couple of weeks?

 

[Jessica Booker]

Someone told me on TSR that if you haven’t sent off summer applications before mid December you have a very slim chance. With respect to rolling, how true is this statement? It seems to me that currently most firms are recruiting for the winter VS, and I’m guessing will start reviewing the summer/spring when they have finished recruiting and organising which is in a couple of weeks?

Oh TSR, the place where too many myths get perpetuated by people who don't know what they are talking about.

If the deadline is in mid December, then maybe. But plenty of firms are not even closing summer apps until the end of January or even later. Many firms will probably have received less than 40% of their applications by mid-December.

It is amazing how many supposed "slim chance" late applications end up getting jobs.

 

[bethbristol]

Someone told me on TSR that if you haven’t sent off summer applications before mid December you have a very slim chance. With respect to rolling, how true is this statement? It seems to me that currently most firms are recruiting for the winter VS, and I’m guessing will start reviewing the summer/spring when they have finished recruiting and organising which is in a couple of weeks?

I applied to 5 firms last year. One was 2 weeks before deadline, all 4 others were within a couple of days of the deadline. The first one I got rejected from, the rest I made it through to the next stage, and got 2 vacation scheme offers. I don't have excellent grades or lots of work experience either. I am not saying that this is the perfect plan, but what they are saying is absolutely not correct - if you need that extra time to get the motivation to write the apps, or refine them, then all is not lost

 

[Deleted member 2707]

Which firm is it for?

It's Baker McKenzie but I can't find a competency list on his website