TCLA Vacation Scheme Applications Discussion Thread 2024-25

[xanderlawyer]

The legal recruitment process is excruciatingly bad. I’ve also yet to secure an offer after 4 assessment centres with different firms the last 2 years.

There’s just too much bias involved in interviews that people are rejected because they weren’t ‘liked’. They shouldn’t allow partners or associates to conduct interviews anymore! It’s awful.

At the end of the day, partners have ownership in the firm and it is of material interest of them to engage in the recruiting process. Partners look for people they can see working alongside, and I've learned that their choice can be a lot more human-centred than grades / scores in an assesment. Being likeable / charismatic / enthusiastic will of course put you in much better stead. This is why it is important to find firms whose culture aligns with your character.

 

[Ram Sabaratnam]

Quick WG Assumption Q:

For humankind to survive, it must colonise other planets.
Assumption - There will be a time when the Earth can no longer sustain human life.

Am I right in saying that an assumption has been made here?

The only thing I can think of against this is that Earth may very well sustain human life, but not be sufficient. Then again, that would mean that it technically cannot sustain human life, and therefore, the assumption is made.

Also, if I were to invert this: There will be a time when the Earth can sustain human life, then the proposed statement becomes redundant, which should logically indicate that there is an assumption, no?

3.30 am yk, I hate these damn tests.

Hiya @broalabear


Just wanted to add to what @Amma Usman has already said. Hoping this makes sense as an explanation for what you should try to do during the assumption section of the WG. Good news is that you're right that this proposed assumption is assumed by the main claim.

An assumption is a statement that the writer/speaker takes for granted in order for another claim to make sense. It’s not stated directly, but it’s essential for the logic of the main claim to hold up. If the proposed assumption turned out to be false, then the main claim/argument would either collapse or at least become much weaker.

One useful way to test whether a statement is an assumption is to imagine what would happen if that proposed assumption were false. I call this the 'negation test'. Ask yourself: if this proposed assumption were false, would the main claim/argument still work? If the answer is no (e.g. if the main claim/argument falls apart), then the proposed assumption IS assumed. If the main statement/argument still works fine, then it’s probably not an assumption.

Let’s take the example you've provided here:

1. Main claim: "For humankind to survive, it must colonise other planets."
   
   
2. Proposed assumption: "There will be a time when the Earth can no longer sustain human life."

Now try negating the proposed assumption. Imagine that the Earth will always be able to sustain humankind. If that were true, then would we need to colonise other planets to survive (remember, this is what's being claimed in (1))? Doesn't look like it. Thus, the main claim is significantly weakened/no longer makes sense if we don't accept the proposed assumption.

This method works well in general: take the proposed assumption you're testing, imagine it's false, and see what happens to the main argument/claim. If the whole thing unravels, you've found an assumption. If the argument/claim still stands, then the proposed assumption is very likely not an assumed.

Let me know if you’d like to more examples or if this doesn't make sense.

 

[Bread]

The legal recruitment process is excruciatingly bad. I’ve also yet to secure an offer after 4 assessment centres with different firms the last 2 years.

There’s just too much bias involved in interviews that people are rejected because they weren’t ‘liked’. They shouldn’t allow partners or associates to conduct interviews anymore! It’s awful.

May be a controversial take, but fundamentally law firms are partnerships where people work very closely together, so imo it makes sense for lawyers to be involved in the recruitment process and pick whom they find likeable, because at the end of the day they will be working long hours together
Besides, if two people don’t click it’s usually mutual, so these personality-based rejections are probably just steering you towards an environment that is more suited to you! Best of luck for your remaining apps x

 

[marisachr]

Don't know how easy it is to find an answer to my question, but here it goes - are there any firms that often give their paralegals opportunities to convert to TC/recruit their trainees from mostly/some of their paralegal cohort? @Jessica Booker @Ram Sabaratnam @Andrei Radu

 

[Bbhu19]

Feeling super deflated after a WBD PFO had scores of 7677, high intellect & mid numerical.

8887 mid mid PFO for WBD

 

[Ali2020]

Has anyone heard back from Aspiring Solicitor's Sky internship?

Hey, I heard back yesterday to complete a MCQ test....not sure if this is automatic to everyone?

 

[Ali2020]

I got an email just now inviting me to MCQ'S.

me too! stressing how to complete this in the short timeframe!

 

[trainee4u]

me too! stressing how to complete this in the short timeframe!

4 minutes, twenty questions, 12 seconds each, I suggest making sure you have a good PC, internet connection, and a mouse (laptop trackpad/pointer slows you down).

 

[Ram Sabaratnam]

Don't know how easy it is to find an answer to my question, but here it goes - are there any firms that often give their paralegals opportunities to convert to TC/recruit their trainees from mostly/some of their paralegal cohort? @Jessica Booker @Ram Sabaratnam @Andrei Radu

Hiya @marisachr

I think @Jessica Booker would likely have a better understanding of this, but wanted to get to you with some information.

From what I’ve seen, there definitely are firms that recruit most or all of their trainees from their paralegal cohort. I know of several strong litigation boutiques (e.g. Stewarts and Leigh Day) where the typical path to a training contract is through a paralegal role at the firm. I’m a bit less sure about how this plays out at transactionally focused firms, but during my assessment centres and vacation schemes, I’ve met various paralegals who were also currently working at those firms. That said, I think it's difficult to say with any certainty whether a specific firm recruits many trainees from its paralegal pool, since there's very little data on this.

One thing I would say is that paralegalling (even if it doesn’t lead to a TC at your current firm) can still be a great way into the profession. I’ve met a lot of paralegals who’ve gone on to secure training contracts elsewhere, often at firms with a similar profile or practice area focus. The experience you gain in these roles can be so helpful when you do apply for a TC later on.

 

[TCpleasex]

WBD Leeds AC!!!

Genuinely in shock, I have been applying for VS/TCs for 4 cycles now & always getting rejected post-app. This is my 2nd AC this cycle alongside 2 VI & 1 TI. For those struggling this cycle don’t give up, I have always lived by ‘what is for you will never go past you’ & this won’t go past you!!!

 

[lawstudent272003]

@Ram Sabaratnam @jessicabooker @Amma Usman @Andrei Radu Could you please provide some tips on completing a candidate profile ahead of a vacation scheme. What sort of things would you put in Work experience, Interests and activities section?

 

[Chris Brown]

The legal recruitment process is excruciatingly bad. I’ve also yet to secure an offer after 4 assessment centres with different firms the last 2 years.

There’s just too much bias involved in interviews that people are rejected because they weren’t ‘liked’. They shouldn’t allow partners or associates to conduct interviews anymore! It’s awful.

At the end of the day, partners have ownership in the firm and it is of material interest of them to engage in the recruiting process. Partners look for people they can see working alongside, and I've learned that their choice can be a lot more human-centred than grades / scores in an assesment. Being likeable / charismatic / enthusiastic will of course put you in much better stead. This is why it is important to find firms whose culture aligns with your character.

May be a controversial take, but fundamentally law firms are partnerships where people work very closely together, so imo it makes sense for lawyers to be involved in the recruitment process and pick whom they find likeable, because at the end of the day they will be working long hours together
Besides, if two people don’t click it’s usually mutual, so these personality-based rejections are probably just steering you towards an environment that is more suited to you! Best of luck for your remaining apps x

I definitely agree that there is still a lot of bias and prejudice in city law. However, I don’t think it’s a good idea for recruitment processes to not involve partners and/or associates. I feel like since partners have an ownership stake in their firm(s), they will want to ensure the right candidates are selected. For that reason, they will want to be part of the interview and selection process of graduate recruitment. Ultimately, city law and the legal profession is driven on collaboration and teamwork, so I think being likeable matters. 🙂

I think this for a few reasons. Firstly, partners want to ensure future trainees (who will go on to become future partners), share the same values and beliefs as them (i.e., being a good cultural fit for the firm). Secondly, from a business point of view, they want the best talent. This ensures the firm continues to grow in scale, revenue and subsequently, higher PPEP. Finally, it allows partners to assess candidates’ motivations, competency and commercial awareness, all very important things trainees need. 😅

I think the important thing is that interviews should be conducted on a CV-blind basis. That way, things like unconscious bias, prejudice and potential discrimination can be avoided as much as possible. Things like rare recruitment help with this, but more needs to be done to ensure the best candidates are chosen, regardless of their ethnic, religious, educational or socioeconomic background. Unfortunately, it isn’t always the case at present. It does come down to luck and subjective judgment. 🥲

Despite this, please do not lose faith in yourself in this process. I am positive that there is a firm out there that will recognise your value and the things you have to offer! Best of luck with the rest of this application cycle! I am sure you will get that well deserved TC soon! 🙂​

 

[zonnonomo]

I definitely agree that there is still a lot of bias and prejudice in city law. However, I don’t think it’s a good idea for recruitment processes to not involve partners and/or associates. I feel like since partners have an ownership stake in their firm(s), they will want to ensure the right candidates are selected. For that reason, they will want to be part of the interview and selection process of graduate recruitment. Ultimately, city law and the legal profession is driven on collaboration and teamwork, so i think being likeable matters. 🙂

I think this for a few reasons. Firstly, partners want to ensure future trainees (who will go on to become future partners), share the same values and beliefs as them (i.e., being a good cultural fit for the firm). Secondly, from a business point of view, they want the best talent. This ensures the firm continues to grow in scale, revenue and subsequently, higher PPEP. Finally, it allows partners to assess candidates’ motivations, competency and commercial awareness, all very important things trainees need. 😅

I think the important thing is that interviews should be conducted on a CV-blind basis. That way, things like unconscious bias, prejudice and potential discrimination can be avoided as much as possible. Things like rare recruitment help with this, but more needs to be done to ensure the best candidates are chosen, regardless of their ethnic, religious, educational or socioeconomic background. Unfortunately, it isn’t always the case at present. It does come down to luck and subjective judgment. 🥲​

why don't them partners fw me i swear im always about increasing that shareholder value🤧📈💸

 

[A worried graduate]

Anyone else heard nothing from HD Liverpool?

 

[Chris Brown]

why don't them partners fw me i swear im always about increasing that shareholder value🤧📈💸

Take both of these bad boys in to your next partner interview and they will fw you for sure:

 

[ecohorts]

SPB rejection post AC. This was my last law firm application of this cycle so this one really hurt. Feeling very depleted right now. I got through to 3 ACs but failed them all. It’s only my first application cycle but the fact I failed every AC is really upsetting.

 

[James Wakefield]

Anyone heard back about the Macfarlanes dinner?

 

[InterestInPublicLaw]

Ditto except I applied to Bristol

Lol same I applied to Bristol. Got highest for both intellects, and a score of 6,7,7,7! This process is so non-transparent

 

[tea]

SPB rejection post AC. This was my last law firm application of this cycle so this one really hurt. Feeling very depleted right now. I got through to 3 ACs but failed them all. It’s only my first application cycle but the fact I failed every AC is really upsetting.

Your applications, tests and everything before the ACs were obviously great so don’t doubt yourself there – it’s such a struggle to get even 1 AC so 3 is amazing! I did 2 ACs this cycle and 3 final partner interviews – failed one AC and waitlisted for the other, but passed all the interviews somehow. It’s obviously really disheartening, but I guess the silver lining is that you can figure out what you need to work on from feedback. Though, from my own personal experience the feedback wasn’t helpful at all, and it was “you were great, but everyone else was better – though your interviews went really really well”. I ended up focusing on firms with final partner interviews rather than ACs because I just couldn't be bothered with them.

Somewhat lazy way out lol, but maybe just start applying to things with a recruitment process geared towards your strengths. If I’d applied solely to firms with an SJT, my application cycle would’ve ended as soon as it started – I’ve failed every single one I’ve done. It wasn’t even something I’d considered looking into, and I ended up being quite lucky that the majority of the firms I’d applied to didn’t have an SJT. I know everyone says to work on the things you can’t do – obviously great advice! – but alternatively applications to firms with a final partner interview (if that’s something you think you would be better at) or with an AC geared towards interviews. If that’s where you struggle consider firms with an interview earlier on in the process and less focus on interviewing later on!

good luck with all your future applications even if this doesn't help x

 

[Logan1101]

I definitely agree that there is still a lot of bias and prejudice in city law. However, I don’t think it’s a good idea for recruitment processes to not involve partners and/or associates. I feel like since partners have an ownership stake in their firm(s), they will want to ensure the right candidates are selected. For that reason, they will want to be part of the interview and selection process of graduate recruitment. Ultimately, city law and the legal profession is driven on collaboration and teamwork, so I think being likeable matters. 🙂

I think this for a few reasons. Firstly, partners want to ensure future trainees (who will go on to become future partners), share the same values and beliefs as them (i.e., being a good cultural fit for the firm). Secondly, from a business point of view, they want the best talent. This ensures the firm continues to grow in scale, revenue and subsequently, higher PPEP. Finally, it allows partners to assess candidates’ motivations, competency and commercial awareness, all very important things trainees need. 😅

I think the important thing is that interviews should be conducted on a CV-blind basis. That way, things like unconscious bias, prejudice and potential discrimination can be avoided as much as possible. Things like rare recruitment help with this, but more needs to be done to ensure the best candidates are chosen, regardless of their ethnic, religious, educational or socioeconomic background. Unfortunately, it isn’t always the case at present. It does come down to luck and subjective judgment. 🥲

Despite this, please do not lose faith in yourself in this process. I am positive that there is a firm out there that will recognise your value and the things you have to offer! Best of luck with the rest of this application cycle! I am sure you will get that well deserved TC soon! 🙂​

The partner interview is discrimination and the best way to get an offer is to have a partner like you.

It becomes a lottery based on who your interviewer is and how they perceive you. There is nothing fair or objective about it.