General Discussion Thread 2020-21

[Alice G]

Hi, can I ask what’s the standard when it comes to case study? Because I usually do quite well with competency and commercial knowledge, but I find the case study quite tricky and there are usually moments where I give the wrong answers or am unsure.

case studies are known to be a tough assessment. I think that each firm will assess differently and it is possible to do well in one case study and miss the mark with another. It is a hard question to answer as standards do tend to be high but you are judged holistically. They appreciate people do not know everything but they will want to see some commercial knowledge. They will be looking for how you communicate and the clarity of this. They are looking at how you can keep to time and cover the things you have been asked to. They will also be looking for the way in which you think and arrive at the responses you do. This sounds like a lot but practice does make perfect and just keep building your commercial awareness and try to interrogate news and sources more critically

 

[Changes]

Yeah, the minimum standard is based on the competency they’re testing being “reasonably met”. This used to be scoring 3/5 and you had to score at least a 3 for all of the competencies tested to be considered. It then changed to being out of 7 with a 4/7 being the standard. The competency framework is quite specific about what these scores mean for each grade and competency, though it is still open to interpretation. On reopening, I was referring to posts outside of the Fast Stream.

But anyway, I doubt many people on this forum are interested in hearing about the Civil Service, so I’ll shut up.

What do law firms do differently when comparing candidates that means that doesn’t happen?

Thanks!

 

[Jessica Booker]

Yeah, the minimum standard is based on the competency they’re testing being “reasonably met”. This used to be scoring 3/5 and you had to score at least a 3 for all of the competencies tested to be considered. It then changed to being out of 7 with a 4/7 being the standard. The competency framework is quite specific about what these scores mean for each grade and competency, though it is still open to interpretation. On reopening, I was referring to posts outside of the Fast Stream.

But anyway, I doubt many people on this forum are interested in hearing about the Civil Service, so I’ll shut up.

What do law firms do differently when comparing candidates that means that doesn’t happen?

Thanks!

I know plenty of situations where candidates score highly in recruitment processes for law firms but don’t get offers. That wouldn’t happen in the CS.

There also tends to be no ranking system in law firms, just a benchmark. CS system generally is more sophisticated (competency frameworks) while law firms will look at things more holistically. Joys of the freedoms of not having to publish these bits of information or be concerned about FOI requests.

 

[Changes]

I know plenty of situations where candidates score highly in recruitment processes for law firms but don’t get offers. That wouldn’t happen in the CS.

There also tends to be no ranking system in law firms, just a benchmark. CS system generally is more sophisticated (competency frameworks) while law firms will look at things more holistically. Joys of the freedoms of not having publish these things or be concerned about FOI requests.

I know plenty of situations where candidates score highly in recruitment processes for law firms but don’t get offers. That wouldn’t happen in the CS.

There also tends to be no ranking system in law firms, just a benchmark. CS system generally is more sophisticated (competency frameworks) while law firms will look at things more holistically. Joys of the freedoms of not having to publish these bits of information or be concerned about FOI requests.

That’s useful and interesting - thanks. Just out of interest, do you think that causes issues with diversity or maybe has done in the past, or could potentially mean the opposite?

 

[X33]

@Jessica Booker On the topic of civil service and careers other than law: I’ve heard that City solicitors tend to stay in law (either at a city firm or in-house), compared to other sectors like banking and consultancy, which have greater exit options.

Is this true in your experience? Obviously this is a massive generalisation, and loads of people have different career paths. But what do lawyers tend to do when they approach the later PQE stages, have slim prospects of partnerships, and look for other opportunities? Do many of them go into politics, banking, running their own businesses etc.?

 

[Jessica Booker]

That’s useful and interesting - thanks. Just out of interest, do you think that causes issues with diversity or maybe has done in the past, or could potentially mean the opposite?

I think it works both ways with diversity.

A very strict competency framework can potentially hinder diversity aims, and the CS put in an extra ordinary amount of effort in to ensure their assessments do not have adverse impact. But that does take a bit of trail and error.

For law firms (and other industries), having flexibility means it is open to more conscious or unconscious bias. However, that can be a good thing for diversity as well as a bad thing.

The CS system is undoubtedly fairer for all. But isn’t without its flaws.

The best system would be to have the very structured competency framework but not have the legal requirements of the hiring principles that the CS has. That would encourage consistency and reduce risk of bias, while allowing some common sense to ensure you hire the most suitable candidates. Some firms do this though!

 

[Jessica Booker]

@Jessica Booker On the topic of civil service and careers other than law: I’ve heard that City solicitors tend to stay in law (either at a city firm or in-house), compared to other sectors like banking and consultancy, which have greater exit options.

Is this true in your experience? Obviously this is a massive generalisation, and loads of people have different career paths. But what do lawyers tend to do when they approach the later PQE stages, have slim prospects of partnerships, and look for other opportunities? Do many of them go into politics, banking, running their own businesses etc.?

Think the most common route is to go in-house. I look at those who I recruited and those who are no longer at the firms I worked for or at their direct competitors are working as in-house lawyers for a wide range of companies.

There’s plenty of exit opportunities outside of law though. I wouldn’t say there are more opportunities for bankers or consultants generally, there are just significantly higher numbers of people working in those professions compared to law, and so they tend to spread further out.

 

[charlieb96]

Hi guys. For any of you that are using the current downtime to apply for TCs or prepare for vac schemes, please feel free to drop me a message. I know how depressing the application process can be so I am more than happy to read/discuss apps, talk through interview prep or anything else that you would find useful. By way of background, I have a training contract at a magic circle firm and have had application and interview success at other UK and US firms.

Please don't hesitate to reach out!!!

 

[MarathonNotaSprint]

Hi guys. For any of you that are using the current downtime to apply for TCs or prepare for vac schemes, please feel free to drop me a message. I know how depressing the application process can be so I am more than happy to read/discuss apps, talk through interview prep or anything else that you would find useful. By way of background, I have a training contract at a magic circle firm and have had application and interview success at other UK and US firms.

Please don't hesitate to reach out!!!

Fantastic! Thank you! Will drop you a message!

 

[Ar2016]

Dentons Telephone Interview! No idea what sort of questions to expect at all, so I would appreciate any tips!

Hi what program was this for? Thanks xx

 

[Miki3999]

Hi what program was this for? Thanks xx

Direct TC (Scotland)

 

[TChopeful2021]

Dentons Telephone Interview! No idea what sort of questions to expect at all, so I would appreciate any tips!

TCLA has a few pages detailing what the telephone (I am pretty sure this is the first round HR interview for ppl who can't travel to the firm but I could be wrong) entails which I personally found to be very helpful. Glassdoor also has a lot of materials and past interview questions. It is a competency-based interview but one should be prepared to answer the why (commercial) law/why Dentons in depth. It's important to note that there is also a commercial focus and I was expected to elaborate on Denton's competitors & clients, defining characteristics, new innovation and key practice areas in detail. They also asked me about a piece of commercial news I was following and how it impacts the firm.

What I did to prepare was making a list of all the past Denton's competency questions gathered from various websites and sort them into categories (resilience/team-work/time-management etc). By doing this, you will soon realise they tend to circle around a few key competencies which makes it quite easy to prepare.

I think it's one of those interviews where you can really prepare for it beforehand so take advantage of that. Good luck!

 

[Changes]

I am applying to an international firm, which has a number of regional offices as well.

One of the questions asks why them and why the location. I'm applying for London, so should I approach it in the same way you would if explaining your connection to a region if applying to a regional office? Or is there an alternative approach?

 

[Law123]

Hi,

Has anyone done the online written assessment for Trowers yet? Any tips would be helpful. Thank you!

 

[Jessica Booker]

I am applying to an international firm, which has a number of regional offices as well.

One of the questions asks why them and why the location. I'm applying for London, so should I approach it in the same way you would if explaining your connection to a region if applying to a regional office? Or is there an alternative approach?

focus why you want to live and work in London. I suspect clients/type of work will be different in London to regional offices. There may also be specialisms in regional offices too (depending on where they are).

 

[Law123]

Hi Jessica,

How would you go about writing a report for a written assessment on Notepad, I'm confused as to the structure to use as on Notepad there is limited features such as no underlining feature to signify a heading/subheading!

Thank you!

 

[Jessica Booker]

Hi Jessica,

How would you go about writing a report for a written assessment on Notepad, I'm confused as to the structure to use as on Notepad there is limited features such as no underlining feature to signify a heading/subheading!

Thank you!

If there is no formatting, I wouldn’t worry about it. Use colons and paragraph spacing to show headings.

Like this example:

And then put your bulk of text/paragraph under the heading. It will be pretty clear it is a heading if it is kept short.

you can also use:

- or * as bullet points

 

[bzheng]

online assessment with stephenson harwood! does anyone know what this entails? is it just the watson-glaser?

 

[LuNo]

When did you get your invite

Tuesday

 

[Ifmhouse4]

Hi everyone, if anyone has any advice for interviewing at Arnold & Porter I would be very grateful!