Whats up with the lack of Guys and POC in AC's?

[TCLA Community Assistant]

My latest AC (Ropes and Gray) there was only 1 POC out of 20 odd and only 3 females. And everyone was very Oxbridge (and slightly irrelevant but everyone was also very posh). So not sure how successful their CV blind strategy is working lol.

I have found on average most US ACs are much more white and male not sure why. Sidley Austin, Weil, Davis Polk, Skadden etc. And that went up to the partners/associates interviewing too, not just the attendees. Although I I have a friend at W&C and she says they are very 'modern' with their recruitment so they might be better.

Overall ACs at SC and MC, the diversity was much much better.

Men generally are attracted to roles that pay more, while women tend to be more attracted to the content of the job.

It doesn’t surprise me that the firms that pay the mega salaries have more male applicants/hires, especially if they are pitched in the way many US firms work.

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

If my terminology offends, I do apologise, sometime in a forum it’s difficult to read the room and adapt your language accordingly. One person’s phrase of choice can be the next’s persons hated phrase. Please feel free to educate me on what you feel is important on this matter!

Diversity of all strands is my geek out topic. I can bore you all to death with why things happen in the way they do, what firms truly are and aren’t doing, and also explain that sometimes our own labelling of others is inaccurate - especially in regards to ethnicity and gender.

To me there are also a lot of other aspects of diversity you don’t see. Just because some aspects of diversity are obvious, you could be missing the ones that are not. Disability, age, sexuality and socio-economic background are all important aspects of diversity you won’t get sight of just from viewing someone Zoom feed. Take it from someone who gets mistaken a lot based on how I look and sound!

 

[LegalLily]

Men generally are attracted to roles that pay more, while women tend to be more attracted to the content of the job.

It doesn’t surprise me that the firms that pay the mega salaries have more male applicants/hires, especially if they are pitched in the way many US firms work.

I never thought about it that way! Makes sense.

 

[shadow-demon]

On the BAME point, I agree it’s been so entrenched that it’s almost impossible to get rid of but my issue is when it is used. If you’re holding an event for ethnic minorities and it’s “BAME with [insert firm] event”, okay then. But when someone is speaking to me, “so as a BAME candidate...” I don’t get it. I’m evidently black because you’re only referring to me. I’m not BAME. Or when I ask you specifically about black people at senior levels and you’re reading me a statistic that it’s 50 BAME associates and after doing my research, one of them is black?

If a company was addressing the issue of hate against Asian communities, I want to get responses targeting that specific group. I don’t want answers mentioning BAME because it is a very broad term. People need to address specific issues without grouping everyone non-white into one category out of laziness.

I also like the quote you included. It’s quite interesting because the perspective can change depending on the country. I feel like a second class citizen here and in my home country for a number of reasons which if I went into, would take up pages but my home country is very anti-women with lots of violence against women and anti-women laws still in place. They actually treat foreigners better lol. Of course, white people are not the majority in the country but there’s still lots of barriers stemming from colourism, tribalism, etc.

Yeah, basically I agree with all you’ve said and wanted to offer another perspective.

I agree, the term 'BAME' needs to be thrown in the bin where it belongs. It is just lazy.

 

[shadow-demon]

I really do think firms and people in general need to get away from this "BAME" focus of recruitment. Ethnicity is not the problem. Social and economic background is the real issue here. By hiring "BAME" candidates that have gone to private school and come from wealthy backgrounds, it does not solve the issue, and if anything, makes the problem worse.

White working-class individuals are the most marginalised and neglected group in the country. It is time we move away from this woke culture of "BAME" and focus on recruiting and retaining talent from those that come from poor social and economic backgrounds.

I see too many firms these days recruiting private school Oxbridge wealthy "BAME" candidates who jump on the bandwagon of “BAME”, which is not diversity in my opinion. More needs to be done to support those from poorer and disadvantaged backgrounds, which also includes white candidates, not just “BAME” candidates.

Just for your info I do come from a minority ethnic background but I do not agree with the way the firms are dealing with these issues.

 

[karinny]

I really do think firms and people in general need to get away from this "BAME" focus of recruitment. Ethnicity is not the problem. Social and economic background is the real issue here. By hiring "BAME" candidates that have gone to private school and come from wealthy backgrounds, it does not solve the issue, and if anything, makes the problem worse.

White working-class individuals are the most marginalised and neglected group in the country. It is time we move away from this woke culture of "BAME" and focus on recruiting and retaining talent from those that come from poor social and economic backgrounds.

I see too many firms these days recruiting private school Oxbridge wealthy "BAME" candidates who jump on the bandwagon of “BAME”, which is not diversity in my opinion. More needs to be done to support those from poorer and disadvantaged backgrounds, which also includes white candidates, not just “BAME” candidates.

Just for your info I do come from a minority ethnic background but I do not agree with the way the firms are dealing with these issues.

'White working-class individuals are the most marginalised and neglected group in the country' that is a very bold and ignorant statement you're making.

 

[Daniel Boden]

'White working-class individuals are the most marginalised and neglected group in the country' that is a very bold and ignorant statement you're making.

Actually, there is some evidence to support that statement in some areas. Only last year the Department for Education released some pretty shocking statistics that show that white working-class males are the least represented group and least likely group to go to university with the gap only widening in recent years (the stats from the report revealed that only 13% of white working-class male pupils go to university compared to 59% of black students and 64% of Asian students) so it is a very real problem in terms of higher education and then the opportunities that follow to get into the corporate/'city' world which I think was the point OP was making.

Obviously, minority groups face tremendous issues of their own and I'm not suggesting otherwise for one second, but there is evidence that someone's socio-economic background is a more significant hurdle to overcome which I think was what OP was trying to suggest.

Edit: stats included for clarity

 

[shadow-demon]

Actually, there is some evidence to support that statement in some areas. Only last year the Department for Education released some pretty shocking statistics that show that white working-class males are the least represented group and least likely group to go to university with the gap only widening in recent years (the stats from the report revealed that only 13% of white working-class male pupils go to university compared to 59% of black students and 64% of Asian students) so it is a very real problem in terms of higher education and then the opportunities that follow to get into the corporate/'city' world which I think was the point OP was making.

Obviously, minority groups face tremendous issues of their own and I'm not suggesting otherwise for one second, but there is evidence that someone's socio-economic background is a more significant hurdle to overcome which I think was what OP was trying to suggest.

Edit: stats included for clarity

Yeah exactly this. I should of included stats to back up my statement but this is exactly what I was trying to say. Thanks Daniel

 

[shadow-demon]

'White working-class individuals are the most marginalised and neglected group in the country' that is a very bold and ignorant statement you're making.

It is not bold, nor ignorant. I am from a minority ethnic background, and the statistics that Daniel has kindly provided supports some of the points I have made. I have spoken to many partners at law firms and have done my research, maybe do yours before attacking me?

 

[Andrew M]

'White working-class individuals are the most marginalised and neglected group in the country' that is a very bold and ignorant statement you're making.

I believe that the poster's wider point was that we have a class problem which is often not addressed in the legal sector (or more generally). If a diversity initiative only, or predominately, targets individuals from wealthy or privileged backgrounds, I don't think it's ludicrous to question whether it is truly effective. Especially when certain sub-groups are statistically far less likely to be represented under this approach.

 

[shadow-demon]

I believe that the poster's wider point was that we have a class problem which is often not addressed in the legal sector (or more generally). If a diversity initiative only, or predominately, targets individuals from wealthy or privileged backgrounds, I don't think it's ludicrous to question whether it is truly effective. Especially when certain sub-groups are statistically far less likely to be represented under this approach.

Exactly.

 

[shadow-demon]

https://www.cfey.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/The-underrepresentation-of-white-working-class-boys-in-higher-education-baars-et-al-2016.pdf

https://www.educationopportunities.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/About-a-Boy-The-challenges-in-widening-access-to-higher-education-for-white-males-from-disadvantaged-backgrounds.pdf

https://www.educationopportunities.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Working-Class-Heroes-Understanding-access-to-Higher-Education-for-white-students-from-lower-socio-economic-backgrounds.pdf

https://www.sunoutreach.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/ReportWhiteBritishWorkingClassmaleresearch5March-2.pdf

https://www.lambeth.gov.uk/rsu/sites/www.lambeth.gov.uk.rsu/files/White_Working_Class_Achievement_A_%20Study_of_Barriers_to_Learning_in_Schools_2010.pdf

Here are some papers if anyone is interested in the discussion regarding white working class individuals and where I have formed some of my views and understanding from.

 

[karinny]

Actually, there is some evidence to support that statement in some areas. Only last year the Department for Education released some pretty shocking statistics that show that white working-class males are the least represented group and least likely group to go to university with the gap only widening in recent years (the stats from the report revealed that only 13% of white working-class male pupils go to university compared to 59% of black students and 64% of Asian students) so it is a very real problem in terms of higher education and then the opportunities that follow to get into the corporate/'city' world which I think was the point OP was making.

Obviously, minority groups face tremendous issues of their own and I'm not suggesting otherwise for one second, but there is evidence that someone's socio-economic background is a more significant hurdle to overcome which I think was what OP was trying to suggest.

Edit: stats included for clarity

Of course, I understand that white working class groups are under represented and I do appreciate the statistics. However, my issue was that they were the 'most' marginalised. Like you say, there are many other minority groups who face issues of their own.

I don't think we should be focusing less on ethnic minority/BAME, but to speak up more about it and other social issues too. More awareness should be brought up about white working class groups, but it doesn't mean we should diminish awareness for everything else.

I just don't think it can be fair to say that one under represented group has it particularly worse than others.

 

[Daniel Boden]

Of course, I understand that white working class groups are under represented and I do appreciate the statistics. However, my issue was that they were the 'most' marginalised. Like you say, there are many other minority groups who face issues of their own.

I don't think we should be focusing less on ethnic minority/BAME, but to speak up more about it and other social issues too. More awareness should be brought up about white working class groups, but it doesn't mean we should diminish awareness for everything else.

I just don't think it can be fair to say that one under represented group has it particularly worse than others.

Yes, I'm completely with you - it certainly isn't a competition as to which group has it worst! As you say, more has to be done in a number of areas to level the playing field for ALL people rather than just certain underrepresented groups

 

[Andrew M]

Of course, I understand that white working class groups are under represented and I do appreciate the statistics. However, my issue was that they were the 'most' marginalised. Like you say, there are many other minority groups who face issues of their own.

I don't think we should be focusing less on ethnic minority/BAME, but to speak up more about it and other social issues too. More awareness should be brought up about white working class groups, but it doesn't mean we should diminish awareness for everything else.

I just don't think it can be fair to say that one under represented group has it particularly worse than others.

Yeah, it isn't (or shouldn't be) a competition. Although in fairness, I think that was also the poster's point. Their comment re white working class males wasn't an opinion - they were repeating what has been reported in several studies over the past couple of years.

Speaking for myself, I certainly don't want firms to stop initiatives to improve the ethnic diversity of the legal sector - quite the opposite, I want to see them improved. It's something I care a lot about and have factored into my decision making when it comes to choosing firms. But the current approach does seem flawed, such as grouping all ethnic minorities under a catch-all ('BAME') label. And not factoring in things like class and lack of opportunities (e.g. education).

 

[Jacob Miller]

I think the single biggest issue at the minute is an underappreciation of the importance of intersectionality in the D&I context.

The use of single-metric (e.g. BAME) access to D&I schemes can result in flawed outcomes in situations where true diversity isn't actually achieved.

It's important, too, to remember that D&I in law is a comparatively new thing, and we're at its cutting edge. While there will almost certainly always be more which can be done, it's important to bear in mind that these problems are easier to analyse and call out than they are to fix in a practical sense, and change will doubtless take time.

 

[shadow-demon]

Of course, I understand that white working class groups are under represented and I do appreciate the statistics. However, my issue was that they were the 'most' marginalised. Like you say, there are many other minority groups who face issues of their own.

I don't think we should be focusing less on ethnic minority/BAME, but to speak up more about it and other social issues too. More awareness should be brought up about white working class groups, but it doesn't mean we should diminish awareness for everything else.

I just don't think it can be fair to say that one under represented group has it particularly worse than others.

I never said we shouldn’t focus on other groups, I just said that social and economic factors are more important in more opinion and that’s where the focus should be instead of recruiting “BAME” individuals who have gone to private schools, the best universities and honestly don’t need the support that people from poorer social economic backgrounds would benefit from. A lot of initiatives are directed solely towards “BAME” which excludes white working class individuals a lot of them time which isn’t ok!

I really wish you read my comments in their entirety, rather then focusing on one phrase which you’ve obviously misunderstood and taken to heart

 

[TCLA Community Assistant]

To me diversity of all strands is important.

It isn’t as simple as ethnicity or even socio-economic background though. Under representation of all groups is a complex, multi layered issue, which just becomes easy to label as X or Y to make it accessible for people to understand.

What I will stress is there is an awful lot of good intention and efforts to improve things though.

 

[Dheepa]

I actually agree with both sides here. There is definitely no need to take away from the seriousness of one issue to make a case about another. But also, there are lots of BAME/POC who come from extremely wealthy well educated backgrounds and who firms recruit in very high numbers imo (I guess I'm especially thinking about some international students). I agree that these groups definitely require much less or at least very little affirmative action help compared to low income/working class background white or POC people.

I think firms are doing a decent job at taking into account all the different diversity strands. The fact that some firms now do voluntary sexuality and disability pay gap reporting is one good indicator. Its going to take time but at least there's movement in the right direction

 

[Romiras]

I actually agree with both sides here. There is definitely no need to take away from the seriousness of one issue to make a case about another. But also, there are lots of BAME/POC who come from extremely wealthy well educated backgrounds and who firms recruit in very high numbers imo (I guess I'm especially thinking about some international students). I agree that these groups definitely require much less or at least very little affirmative action help compared to low income/working class background white or POC people.

I think firms are doing a decent job at taking into account all the different diversity strands. The fact that some firms now do voluntary sexuality and disability pay gap reporting is one good indicator. Its going to take time but at least there's movement in the right direction

I'd be interested to see where you're getting the "very high" numbers for this. I can confidently say that most cohorts in most city firms are predominantly White, even if you group every single person of colour and grouped them up. It's also quite lovely to see an asymmetric view taken towards scrutinising BAME/POC candidates, without really doing the same for wealthier White counterparts. If anything is abundantly clear, socioeconomic issues are a very, very big factor. But people are too quick to frame it as a Wealthy BAME/POC vs White Working Class issue, when this is not helpful and only divisive.

I don't know how anyone can say that "very little affirmative action" is required for even those groups, when you can quite literally see law firm reports showing abysmal retention of BAME lawyers at the more senior levels (and we're not even talking about partnership). Would you maintain the same position for women? Even with more overt gender parity quotas, there's still only 15-20% representation at senior levels. It's almost like you're suggesting there is even any substantive (or overtly compensating) affirmative action in place for BAME/POC lawyers (please show me).

My key point on this is that it's good to look at recruiting drives that look diverse. It paints a wonderful picture if you're an optimist. But the picture is really only a lot more complete (and a lot uglier) when you look at actual fee earner representation statistics. Representation in the actual industry is incredibly far from the optics that future trainees and aspiring lawyers see.

I'd also be remiss to not drop a comment about the wealth gap between BAME vs White ethnic groups (and within the BAME term itself, the difference in average socio-economic statuses).

Lastly, just to add a comment on this: "White working-class individuals are the most marginalised and neglected group in the country" - I'm disappointed to see this rhetoric here (and even more so to see it so uncritically supported). As other comments have pointed out, it's a very intersectional topic. But if you're comparing the opportunities of being White + Male, despite being "working class", versus your Black counterparts who are also "working class", you'll see how there are privileges afford to the White Male that allows them to "succeed" (I use the term loosely given the more damning circumstances of being in a poverty-stricken context has over racial and gender 'perks') over their Black counterparts: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/gwao.12512