training contract internatioanl students

pri

Well-Known Member
Mar 8, 2024
23
7
hello everyone! I would like to ask an honest question, do you think firms like Freshfields and Clifford Chance actuallly consider applications from international students who have not studied in the UK? If so, is anyone in contact with an international student (that has not studied in the UK!!!) who has made it into a magic circle firm?
I am also wondering whether a good cv with several international experiences in the legal field is enough to compensate not having studied in the UK?
Thank you all, I'll be incredibly greatful if anyone has answers!
 

Jessica Booker

Legendary Member
TCLA Moderator
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Graduate Recruitment
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Aug 1, 2019
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hello everyone! I would like to ask an honest question, do you think firms like Freshfields and Clifford Chance actuallly consider applications from international students who have not studied in the UK? If so, is anyone in contact with an international student (that has not studied in the UK!!!) who has made it into a magic circle firm?
I am also wondering whether a good cv with several international experiences in the legal field is enough to compensate not having studied in the UK?
Thank you all, I'll be incredibly greatful if anyone has answers!
Yes - that is clearly the case as they both have trainees who are most likely non U.K. citizens and who have studied outside of the U.K.
 

pri

Well-Known Member
Mar 8, 2024
23
7
Thank you, that is relieving to hear! I have already looked up their trainees on linkedin to see their background and although many of them are international students, they all somehow studied (often master degrees) in prestigious Uk universities. Do you know by any chance where I can find more infos on their trainees, I know linkedin is not the most reliable source.
Thanks a lot!
 

Jessica Booker

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Graduate Recruitment
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Aug 1, 2019
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Thank you, that is relieving to hear! I have already looked up their trainees on linkedin to see their background and although many of them are international students, they all somehow studied (often master degrees) in prestigious Uk universities. Do you know by any chance where I can find more infos on their trainees, I know linkedin is not the most reliable source.
Thanks a lot!
LinkedIn will be the best route as both firms do not include trainees in their “find a lawyer” part of their website.
 

jmak

Star Member
May 12, 2024
33
83
hello everyone! I would like to ask an honest question, do you think firms like Freshfields and Clifford Chance actuallly consider applications from international students who have not studied in the UK? If so, is anyone in contact with an international student (that has not studied in the UK!!!) who has made it into a magic circle firm?
I am also wondering whether a good cv with several international experiences in the legal field is enough to compensate not having studied in the UK?
Thank you all, I'll be incredibly greatful if anyone has answers!
Clifford Chance definitely hire internationally. I met a partner last year at an event who talked about how CC hire foreign qualified lawyers laterally from non-EU countries. So he mentioned that there was a lawyer from South Africa who he hired straight to associate - this individual didn't have to do a TC. I think the individual will qualify through a different route - it wasn't so clear! But basically, this showed me that they really value international talent/are open to it. At graduate level, I think if you get a TC you will have to do the GDL first before the SQE. All magic circle, silver circle and US firms sponsor visas. will be more difficult as an international student for firms that are smaller/more national. I personally think US firms are better for international students
 
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pri

Well-Known Member
Mar 8, 2024
23
7
Clifford Chance definitely hire internationally. I met a partner last year at an event who talked about how CC hire foreign qualified lawyers laterally from non-EU countries. So he mentioned that there was a lawyer from South Africa who he hired straight to associate - this individual didn't have to do a TC. I think the individual will qualify through a different route - it wasn't so clear! But basically, this showed me that they really value international talent/are open to it. At graduate level, I think if you get a TC you will have to do the GDL first before the SQE. All magic circle, silver circle and US firms sponsor visas. will be more difficult as an international student for firms that are smaller/more national. I personally think US firms are better for international students
Thanks that is an interesting insight!! I was kind of excluding american firms automatically as they appeared to me as less accessible that the UK ones but if you say so I will definetly reconsider! I am currently focused on Freshfields the most but I'll be open to more options.
Do you think open days are a good way to get to know the people who work there or are there other events I can attend to get closer testimonials?
Thank you again!
 

Jessica Booker

Legendary Member
TCLA Moderator
Gold Member
Graduate Recruitment
Premium Member
Forum Team
Aug 1, 2019
14,502
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Thanks that is an interesting insight!! I was kind of excluding american firms automatically as they appeared to me as less accessible that the UK ones but if you say so I will definetly reconsider! I am currently focused on Freshfields the most but I'll be open to more options.
Do you think open days are a good way to get to know the people who work there or are there other events I can attend to get closer testimonials?
Thank you again!
Open days can be a good opportunity but the difficulty is attending them if you are outside of the UK. Travelling to attend them might be at a cost to you as firms will only reimburse a certain level of expenses for them.
 

AlexJ

Valued Member
Junior Lawyer
  • Sep 23, 2022
    118
    153
    Thanks that is an interesting insight!! I was kind of excluding american firms automatically as they appeared to me as less accessible that the UK ones but if you say so I will definetly reconsider! I am currently focused on Freshfields the most but I'll be open to more options.
    Do you think open days are a good way to get to know the people who work there or are there other events I can attend to get closer testimonials?
    Thank you again!
    A good way to get an insight is to look at profiles of associates on the websites (most people don’t list trainees). It will often detail where they went to university and if they trained at the firm.
     
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    pri

    Well-Known Member
    Mar 8, 2024
    23
    7
    Open days can be a good opportunity but the difficulty is attending them if you are outside of the UK. Travelling to attend them might be at a cost to you as firms will only reimburse a certain level of expenses for them.
    Yes I was thinking about the costs too but if I can catch a week with 2/3 open days I'll be happy to travel with my own money since it's a great opportunity ! Thank you so much for answering my many doubts, this platform is incredibly helpful!
     

    jmak

    Star Member
    May 12, 2024
    33
    83
    Thanks that is an interesting insight!! I was kind of excluding american firms automatically as they appeared to me as less accessible that the UK ones but if you say so I will definetly reconsider! I am currently focused on Freshfields the most but I'll be open to more options.
    Do you think open days are a good way to get to know the people who work there or are there other events I can attend to get closer testimonials?
    Thank you again!
    Almost all of my international friends got TC's at US firms. I think given the US firm's are not UK origins they are more open to international applicants/value it more. Also magic circle firms also care much more about grades like A-Levels and university whereas US firms look at your applications more holistically - I think this stems from US vs UK education culture. If you look at US university applications e.g Harvard, Stanford, Princeton- they place a lot of emphasis on extra curricular activities and positions of responsibility. Whereas UK university applications to Oxford and Cambridge if you get straight A*'s that's really good enough to get you in. I honestly don't know if this is true but my own analysis of US vs UK culture from university to law firm applications. I also have friends at US firms - Covington, W&C, Skadden, Debevoise and Latham and they were not top of their class/straight A*/first class degree students. In fact, 3 of my friends at these firms had just met the 2.1 threshold. I also did a vac scheme at a US firm and I have a 2.1. This to me shows me that US firm's look at your application more holistically. In contrast, my really good friend at A&O Shearman was the typical straight A* through GCSE's and A-levels and is an Oxford graduate. She got TC's at A&O, Clifford Chance and Freshfields. She is exceptional academically and her success at magic circle firms showed me what they are looking for. Anyway, hope this is useful! Take with a pinch of salt as this is just my own reflection and analysis!
     

    pri

    Well-Known Member
    Mar 8, 2024
    23
    7
    Thank you it's definetely great to know.
    I looked up some of the firms you mentioned and saw that they all have academic requirements that are quite similar to the magic circle ones. Given your experience, would you say that US firms, contrary to UK ones, have academic requirements as a "formality" rather than an essential requirement to be met?
    I personally got an ABB for my A levels (whereas I will likely graduate with a first-class honours), do you believe US firms are more likely (compared to UK firms) to consider my application even though I do not meet their A levels requiremements (usually AAB)?
    Thanks for sharing your experience, this is incredibly helpful!
     

    Jessica Booker

    Legendary Member
    TCLA Moderator
    Gold Member
    Graduate Recruitment
    Premium Member
    Forum Team
    Aug 1, 2019
    14,502
    20,196
    Thank you it's definetely great to know.
    I looked up some of the firms you mentioned and saw that they all have academic requirements that are quite similar to the magic circle ones. Given your experience, would you say that US firms, contrary to UK ones, have academic requirements as a "formality" rather than an essential requirement to be met?
    I personally got an ABB for my A levels (whereas I will likely graduate with a first-class honours), do you believe US firms are more likely (compared to UK firms) to consider my application even though I do not meet their A levels requiremements (usually AAB)?
    Thanks for sharing your experience, this is incredibly helpful!
    I wouldn't say it is a binary as US vs UK firms.

    For instance, at least two of the MC firms do not have any A-level criteria (Freshfields/Clifford Chance). Of those that do, some also have a contextualised recruitment process as well.

    Some US firms will be strict on their A-level requirements and can afford to be with the number of applications they receive. However, some US firms have no A-level criteria as well. You can find a fairly comprehensive list of those that do and those that don't here: https://www.chambersstudent.co.uk/l...g-contract/application-and-selection-criteria

    I would also check the language used by firms in their marketing materials. If a firm states you must have obtained something, that is pretty clear it is a minimum criteria. Alternatively, if the firm uses language like "we typically look for" that suggests some flexibility.
     

    lawyerdreams

    Star Member
    Jul 25, 2024
    28
    28
    Just to add another perspective, in my opinion UK firms on average tend to me more lenient with grade requirements - if you look on the recruitment pages, often times I've seen US firms ask for "a 2:1 degree minimum and exceptional prior academic results/strong academic record" or something of that wording (which, granted, is very vague) whereas I've seen a handful of UK firms which just ask for a 2:1 degree minimum but don't appear to mention anything about results prior to university. That said, a majority of firms recruit using Rare so grades that don't meet the requirements, might not be a significant hinderence. But overall, I think the best place to start is the link @Jessica Booker sent!
     
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    pri

    Well-Known Member
    Mar 8, 2024
    23
    7
    I wouldn't say it is a binary as US vs UK firms.

    For instance, at least two of the MC firms do not have any A-level criteria (Freshfields/Clifford Chance). Of those that do, some also have a contextualised recruitment process as well.

    Some US firms will be strict on their A-level requirements and can afford to be with the number of applications they receive. However, some US firms have no A-level criteria as well. You can find a fairly comprehensive list of those that do and those that don't here: https://www.chambersstudent.co.uk/l...g-contract/application-and-selection-criteria

    I would also check the language used by firms in their marketing materials. If a firm states you must have obtained something, that is pretty clear it is a minimum criteria. Alternatively, if the firm uses language like "we typically look for" that suggests some flexibility.
    Thank you so much, checking the language id certainly a great adivce! I'll check the link too.
     

    pri

    Well-Known Member
    Mar 8, 2024
    23
    7
    Just to add another perspective, in my opinion UK firms on average tend to me more lenient with grade requirements - if you look on the recruitment pages, often times I've seen US firms ask for "a 2:1 degree minimum and exceptional prior academic results/strong academic record" or something of that wording (which, granted, is very vague) whereas I've seen a handful of UK firms which just ask for a 2:1 degree minimum but don't appear to mention anything about results prior to university. That said, a majority of firms recruit using Rare so grades that don't meet the requirements, might not be a significant hinderence. But overall, I think the best place to start is the link @Jessica Booker sent!
    I noticed that too! Thanks a lot, getting different answers from so many people is helping me getting a good picture of the firms!
     
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    jmak

    Star Member
    May 12, 2024
    33
    83
    Hi Pri! That's just my experience obviously and I think what everyone else has said is also true. UK firms place greater emphasis on social mobility and that obviously has a huge impact on a persons' success at A-Levels so for that reason they are not as strict on A-level grades. Generally, it also depends on the 'status' of the US or UK law firms. For example, Kirkland, Latham, Sidley Austin and Gibson Dunn are the 'best' of the US law firms. Kirkland is top dog particularly for private equity, finance and corporate M&A so I don't think Kirkland views applications as holistically as a magic circle firm. In this case, I would say any magic circle firm, apart from Slaughters, would view an application more holistically than Kirkland. I think once you start networking and learning about the different firms and their cultures/people you get a sense of which ones are more holistic in their approach and which ones are more hard lined in academics. Slaughters for example, is probably the hardest magic circle to get into and honestly most people would tell you they don't view applications holistically. I also think what a lot of firms put on the website doesn't actually reflect their actual practice. Some firms say one thing but don't recruit in that way or other firms look harder to get into but you might realise they are more holistic than some of the ones that say they don't look at A-levels. I would take website information with a pinch of salt. For example, Slaughters has no minimum A-level requirement yet it's one of the hardest firms to get into. Slaughters also says minimum 2.1 but I went to an open day and a recruiter during a networking event literally told me that its so competitive that although a 2.1 is the minimum because they get people with exceptional academics, and "they select the best people" - basically insinuating that the better grades you have the better chance you have for a Slaughters TC. So from that I got the sense that a 2.1 was not good enough for them and if it was between me and another person with a first my work experience would not make my profile stronger/ grades are the most important factor.

    I would network with people on LinkedIn, find out their backgrounds etc. I only say US firms are more holistic because through my networking I met people who had strong work experience and very interesting/less conventional profiles and they were at US firms. I have a high 2.1 but I am conscious it's not first. But my experience is more interesting than my academic profile, so when I met a person at Covington who got a TC with a lower 2.1 and he said he had all this interesting experience and that is why the firm chose him, I knew I wanted to apply there. Also my experience is that I have been most successful with US firms. My profile - international & 2.1 from Russell group uni. I got to the interview stage at vinson & elkins, assessment centre at crowell & moring and vacation scheme at white & case. I've applied to A&O, Freshfields, Clifford Chance for vac schemes and TC's multiple times and the most I got was the watson glaser at clifford chance. I got a vac scheme at a silver circle but it was my third application to them and it required attending so many events and putting my face in front of the recruitment team multiple times, whereas I feel like I have not had to do as much to get passed the application stage at US firms. I don't know why but I think my profile specifically is more appealing to US firms. I consider my profile very 'broad' - I have good academics from IGCSE's to IB(A level) and Uni, but not exceptional (I don't have straight A*'s and my lowest gcse grade is B). My background is very international - work experience in different countries in different sectors and industries, study broad, volunteering internationally and i'm also not British. So based on my experience, I have focused on US firms just because I have found UK firms don't like my profile as much. But I will never know because you don't get feedback after a rejection. I can only judge and make sense of where I have been successful and where I have not been, and where my international friends have been successful and I have seen a pattern
     
    Last edited:

    pri

    Well-Known Member
    Mar 8, 2024
    23
    7
    Hi Pri! That's just my experience obviously and I think what everyone else has said is also true. UK firms place greater emphasis on social mobility and that obviously has a huge impact on a persons' success at A-Levels so for that reason they are not as strict on A-level grades. Generally, it also depends on the 'status' of the US or UK law firms. For example, Kirkland, Latham, Sidley Austin and Gibson Dunn are the 'best' of the US law firms. Kirkland is top dog particularly for private equity, finance and corporate M&A so I don't think Kirkland views applications as holistically as a magic circle firm. In this case, I would say any magic circle firm, apart from Slaughters, would view an application more holistically than Kirkland. I think once you start networking and learning about the different firms and their cultures/people you get a sense of which ones are more holistic in their approach and which ones are more hard lined in academics. Slaughters for example, is probably the hardest magic circle to get into and honestly most people would tell you they don't view applications holistically. I also think what a lot of firms put on the website doesn't actually reflect their actual practice. Some firms say one thing but don't recruit in that way or other firms look harder to get into but you might realise they are more holistic than some of the ones that say they don't look at A-levels. I would take website information with a pinch of salt. For example, Slaughters has no minimum A-level requirement yet it's one of the hardest firms to get into. Slaughters also says minimum 2.1 but I went to an open day and a recruiter during a networking event literally told me that its so competitive that although a 2.1 is the minimum because they get people with exceptional academics, and "they select the best people" - basically insinuating that the better grades you have the better chance you have for a Slaughters TC. So from that I got the sense that a 2.1 was not good enough for them and if it was between me and another person with a first my work experience would not make my profile stronger/ grades are the most important factor.

    I would network with people on LinkedIn, find out their backgrounds etc. I only say US firms are more holistic because through my networking I met people who had strong work experience and very interesting/less conventional profiles and they were at US firms. I have a high 2.1 but I am conscious it's not first. But my experience is more interesting than my academic profile, so when I met a person at Covington who got a TC with a lower 2.1 and he said he had all this interesting experience and that is why the firm chose him, I knew I wanted to apply there. Also my experience is that I have been most successful with US firms. My profile - international & 2.1 from Russell group uni. I got to the interview stage at vinson & elkins, assessment centre at crowell & moring and vacation scheme at white & case. I've applied to A&O, Freshfields, Clifford Chance for vac schemes and TC's multiple times and the most I got was the watson glaser at clifford chance. I got a vac scheme at a silver circle but it was my third application to them and it required attending so many events and putting my face in front of the recruitment team multiple times, whereas I feel like I have not had to do as much to get passed the application stage at US firms. I don't know why but I think my profile specifically is more appealing to US firms. I consider my profile very 'broad' - I have good academics from IGCSE's to IB(A level) and Uni, but not exceptional (I don't have straight A*'s and my lowest gcse grade is B). My background is very international - work experience in different countries in different sectors and industries, study broad, volunteering internationally and i'm also not British. So based on my experience, I have focused on US firms just because I have found UK firms don't like my profile as much. But I will never know because you don't get feedback after a rejection. I can only judge and make sense of where I have been successful and where I have not been, and where my international friends have been successful and I have seen a pattern
    Hi Jmak! Thank you so much for sharing your experience, I truly appreciate it. I'll keep everything you said in mind for my next applications :)
     

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