LPC or SQE?

[Jessica Booker]

Yeah, I was trying to refer to it as a 'graduate programme' because I'm not sure as to what the official title will be.

The reason why I replied to the user is because I think that it's odd to suggest that firms that have been running training programmes for ages will stop doing those in favour of picking up people who have gathered work experience here and there. As you said, the TC bottleneck's just gonna turn into an NQ bottleneck for most firms

I don’t think firms will try to pick up people with substantial work experience for general “TC” roles.

They may however start to pick up people for niche departments with that specific experience, especially if it becomes more internationally focused (I’m thinking about international arbitration and area like competition). Also allows departments like international desks based in London (thinking of India desks or Nordic desks) to hire the people they specifically want and bring in people with the language and cultural skills (which generally doesn’t happen in general recruitment hiring).

Power shifts away from Grad Rec and Training Principals, where due to the SRA regulations there has always been an element of control. Nothing stopping individual partners hiring their own trainees how if they wanted to.

But for getting bodies into general corporate/finance/litigation seats, I still see the general model winning out for a while. It is ultimately no different to other graduate rotational programmes really.

What will be interesting to see is if there is a war for talent pre qualification. There is nothing stopping a firm coming along and trying to tap up trainees who are 12-18 months into their programme, and offering them either early qualification (if they are eligible) or a guarantee of a NQ role after six months experience.

 

[JohanGRK]

I don’t think firms will try to pick up people with substantial work experience for general “TC” roles.

They may however start to pick up people for niche departments with that specific experience, especially if it becomes more internationally focused (I’m thinking about international arbitration and area like competition). Also allows departments like international desks based in London (thinking of India desks or Nordic desks) to hire the people they specifically want and bring in people with the language and cultural skills (which generally doesn’t happen in general recruitment hiring).

Power shifts away from Grad Rec and Training Principals, where due to the SRA regulations there has always been an element of control. Nothing stopping individual partners hiring their own trainees how if they wanted to.

But for getting bodies into general corporate/finance/litigation seats, I still see the general model winning out for a while. It is ultimately no different to other graduate rotational programmes really.

What will be interesting to see is if there is a war for talent pre qualification. There is nothing stopping a firm coming along and trying to tap up trainees who are 12-18 months into their programme, and offering them either early qualification (if they are eligible) or a guarantee of a NQ role after six months experience.

Interesting! Never thought about any of these possibilities

 

[OB]

Hi @Jessica Booker,

Just to jump on this thread as I've been having a think about the SQE recently. I'm currently searching for paralegal roles and a major barrier I'm finding is that I haven't completed the LPC. I was comparing if I were to self-fund the LPC whether I would be better off sticking to the LPC or going with the new SQE course. I know you can't make a decision for me but out of interest, what route do you think would be best?

I've also noticed with prep courses and exam costs, the SQE at the minute seems more expensive when compared to the cost of the LPC! (Thats on comparing tuition fees on Uni of Law)

 

[Jessica Booker]

Hi @Jessica Booker,

Just to jump on this thread as I've been having a think about the SQE recently. I'm currently searching for paralegal roles and a major barrier I'm finding is that I haven't completed the LPC. I was comparing if I were to self-fund the LPC whether I would be better off sticking to the LPC or going with the new SQE course. I know you can't make a decision for me but out of interest, what route do you think would be best?

I've also noticed with prep courses and exam costs, the SQE at the minute seems more expensive when compared to the cost of the LPC! (Thats on comparing tuition fees on Uni of Law)

Couple of questions:

1) Are you a law grad?
2) Do you have legal work experience? If so, what’s the longest amount of time you have worked in one firm?

 

[Yoryis]

It never needed to be in England and Wales (why so many firms offered international secondments for trainees) - so this is not an issue. The QWE can be anywhere as long as it is signed off by an lawyer who is qualified in England and Wales.

The thing you need to consider though is whether this will make you employable. I suspect for outside of the U.K., being Qualified in England and Wales will be a major advantage. However, if you are looking to work in the U.K., my concern is that having a lot of different experiences and not a formal training contract will not be attractive to many firms. There is a risk that you are deemed qualified but under experienced for a NQ role, but over qualified for a trainee role.

Hi Jessica,

I have some questions triggered by your last sentence above and I would very much appreciate your view on these. Apologies in advance for this long post:

I studied and qualified in an EU jurisdiction and I immediately started working as an associate at the EU office of a MC firm. I worked there for 18 months-this is my PQE. I am now applying for TCs and I have only received rejections. The MC partner I worked for was very happy to provide me with a recommendation letter which, however, I have not been able to use.

The London office of "my" MC firm rejected me within a week, telling me that they were mainly recruiting 1st-year students (they did not even send me a WG test). Following this, I tried to contact some law firms before even submitting an application. Most MC firms advised me to apply for an associate position, whereas most US firms told me to apply for a TC because I do not have UK experience. In the end, it made no difference. All my TC applications have been rejected...

It is of course possible that my TC applications are not good enough. However, I was wondering whether all these rejections may also be because I am overqualified for a TC. Do you think this might be the case?

In relation to the topic of this thread:

• What is your view about the GDL/LPC route vs the QLTS route? Should I pay now and apply for the last round of QLTS?
• The alternative would be to apply again for TCs next year, hoping a firm will pay for my GDL/LPC or SQE. If I do not manage to land a TC, would it make sense to qualify here through the SQE (which I understand will replace the QLTS) before finding an associate position? Would a qualification through the QLTS/SQE increase my chances to find an associate position?

I understand there is no clear answer and the only way to find out what my chances are is to apply /contact law firms. However, the answers I have received are not very clear (ie "please apply and we will consider your application"). Given your experience, I would be really grateful for any help or advice, in particular with regard to the first bullet point. Many, many thanks in advance (just for reading all this!)

Edit/PS: I am a law grad.

 

[Jessica Booker]

Hi Jessica,

I have some questions triggered by your last sentence above and I would very much appreciate your view on these. Apologies in advance for this long post:

I studied and qualified in an EU jurisdiction and I immediately started working as an associate at the EU office of a MC firm. I worked there for 18 months-this is my PQE. I am now applying for TCs and I have only received rejections. The MC partner I worked for was very happy to provide me with a recommendation letter which, however, I have not been able to use.

The London office of "my" MC firm rejected me within a week, telling me that they were mainly recruiting 1st-year students (they did not even send me a WG test). Following this, I tried to contact some law firms before even submitting an application. Most MC firms advised me to apply for an associate position, whereas most US firms told me to apply for a TC because I do not have UK experience. In the end, it made no difference. All my TC applications have been rejected...

I am currently doing a PhD (Cambridge). I do not want to convert it to a part-time degree or lose my scholarship hence I have not applied for any associate positions yet (of course I will do so, once I submit my thesis, but tbh I am not very optimistic).

It is of course possible that my TC applications are not good enough. However, I was wondering whether all these rejections may also be because I am overqualified for a TC (btw, I am 29 y.o.). Do you think this might be the case?

In relation to the topic of this thread:

• What is your view about the GDL/LPC route vs the QLTS route? Should I pay now and apply for the last round of QLTS?
• The alternative would be to apply again for TCs next year, hoping a firm will pay for my GDL/LPC or SQE. If I do not manage to land a TC, would it make sense to qualify here through the SQE (which I understand will replace the QLTS) before finding an associate position? Would a qualification through the QLTS/SQE increase my chances to find an associate position?

I understand there is no clear answer and the only way to find out what my chances are is to apply /contact law firms. However, the answers I have received are not very clear (ie "please apply and we will consider your application"). Given your experience, I would be really grateful for any help or advice, in particular with regard to the first bullet point. Many, many thanks in advance (just for reading all this!)

Edit/PS: I am a law grad.

You are over qualified for a training contract. Training contracts are usually reserved for non-qualified lawyers, and in case where they are open to people who are qualified in another jurisdiction, it is usually when they have very little experience. I am not surprised to hear you are being unsuccessful, as most firms would suggest you just apply for qualified lawyer roles, although probably with a little more experience (another 6-12 months).

Someone with your background would be crazy to do the GDL/LPC route - you’d only do this if you secured a TC otherwise for someone like yourself it could be a massive waste of time, especially when you could just do the QLTS in months (which will be replaced by the SQE) rather than having to waste two years on the GDL/LPC. If you did not take SQE route, you’d need to start the GDL by December 2021.

To qualify via the SQE, you will still need two years qualifying work experience. That’s going to be the trickiest part, but you could do that in any country as long as you are working on English law matters and can get someone to sign it off for you.

 

[OB]

Couple of questions:

1) Are you a law grad?
2) Do you have legal work experience? If so, what’s the longest amount of time you have worked in one firm?

I'm a law grad, and only 2 weeks work experience a few years ago so no solid legal work experience as of yet

 

[Jessica Booker]

I'm a law grad, and only 2 weeks work experience a few years ago so no solid legal work experience as of yet

Then the LPC. Purely because the LPC will mean you can skip SQE stage 1, but it doesn't work the other way around (e.g the SQE1 won't mean you can skip the LPC if you so stick to a traditional TC during the transitional period).

 

[OB]

Then the LPC. Purely because the LPC will mean you can skip SQE stage 1, but it doesn't work the other way around (e.g the SQE1 won't mean you can skip the LPC if you so stick to a traditional TC during the transitional period).

Ah I didn't know this! Thank you for your advice!

 

[Yoryis]

You are over qualified for a training contract. Training contracts are usually reserved for non-qualified lawyers, and in case where they are qualified in another jurisdiction, it is usually with very little experience. I am not surprised to hear you are being unsuccessful, as most firms would suggest you just apply for qualified lawyer roles, although probably with a little more experience (another 6-12 months).

Someone with your background would be crazy to do the GDL/LPC route - you’d only do this if you secured a TC otherwise for someone like yourself it could be a massive waste of time, especially when you could just do the QLTS in months (which will be replaced by the SQE) rather than having to waste two years on the GDL/LPC. If you did not take SQE route, you’d need to start the GDL by December 2021.

To qualify via the SQE, you will still need two years qualifying work experience. That’s going to be the trickiest part, but you could do that in any country as long as you are working on English law matters and can get someone to sign it off for you.

Many thanks, Jessica!

To be honest, I never considered the GDL/LPC route outside a TC contract. I applied for TCs in order to (1) avoid self-funding the QLTS and (2) minimize the risk of qualifying through QLTS and then not being able to find an associate position because I would compete with NQ lawyers who have real UK law experience (and 4 different seats).

So I understand that self-funding and qualifying through the QLTS asap would be the best/fastest option?

If I do not manage to take the QLTS now (not sure I can devote enough time at the moment), I will need to pay for the SQE and once I pass it (either the first or both parts) I should apply to law firms for QWE. Correct? Is this a different application than for TCs? Do you know if, during these two years, I will be a trainee or perhaps something like a "foreign qualified lawyer"?

And just to avoid spamming with multiple posts: Thank you very much! You are always extremely helpful and an irreplaceable source of information!

 

[Jessica Booker]

Many thanks, Jessica!

To be honest, I never considered the GDL/LPC route outside a TC contract. I applied for TCs in order to (1) avoid self-funding the QLTS and (2) minimize the risk of qualifying through QLTS and then not being able to find an associate position because I would compete with NQ lawyers who have real UK law experience (and 4 different seats).

So I understand that self-funding and qualifying through the QLTS asap would be the best/fastest option?

If I do not manage to take the QLTS now (not sure I can devote enough time at the moment), I will need to pay for the SQE and once I pass it (either the first or both parts) I should apply to law firms for QWE. Correct? Is this a different application than for TCs? Do you know if, during these two years, I will be a trainee or perhaps something like a "foreign qualified lawyer"?

And just to avoid spamming with multiple posts: Thank you very much! You are always extremely helpful and an irreplaceable source of information!

Fastest yes (depending on whether you can still sign up to it, not 100% sure you can where it is transitioning to the SQE). I am not sure whether it would be the best option though.

Firms have never recruited qualified lawyers through a QWE/SQE route before, so it is impossible to understand what the process could be and whether firms will be open to it unfortunately.

You wouldn't be a trainee though - you would most likely be labelled a foreign qualified lawyer if you did gain this experience.

 

[Jessica Booker]

I forgot to mention, I think the SQE does make it somewhat easier for foreign qualified lawyers to transition across now compared to the existing system. What the unknown is how the job market will adapt to it. I think it will generally be easier to transfer within a firm still (e.g. work in your home country and then move across with the same firm) as this has always been the easier way to gain experience in the UK, but I think there will be more options as you can ultimately gain more "informal" work placements and accumulate the qualifying work experience, or you could gain that QWE outside of the UK too.

 

[Lisa Lowe]

Jessica - can I also get your advice here.

I have the option to train in-house in September. I haven’t applied to the UoL or BPP yet. But was thinking of doing the part-time LPC (which the business I work for would fund) and undertaking my seats while simultaneously studying the LPC.

Do you think this is the best option or should I explore the SQE route further? I am just worried about being in the first intake and there still seems a lot of uncertainty.

 

[Jessica Booker]

Jessica - can I also get your advice here.

I have the option to train in-house in September. I haven’t applied to the UoL or BPP yet. But was thinking of doing the part-time LPC (which the business I work for would fund) and undertaking my seats while simultaneously studying the LPC.

Do you think this is the best option or should I explore the SQE route further? I am just worried about being in the first intake and there still seems a lot of uncertainty.

If your employer has no preference and they are picking up the cheque for the course, I would go with the LPC.

 

[MR1888]

If someone has completed their LPC do they still need a training contract or would they be able to do qualifying work experience?

 

[Jessica Booker]

They could do qualifying work experience, but would still need to complete SQE stage 2

 

[anxiouslawyer]

Hi there, been following this thread and would like to get some advice.

I did my law degree in the UK and graduated in 2016, then went on to do a Masters in 2017. I then went back to Malaysia to work a corporate job for a few years (telecoms regulation, but NOT as legal counsel since I never got my qualifications). I'm looking to qualify and work as a solicitor in the UK - should I go for the LPC or SQE? Thinking of self-funding in case my applications this round don't work out.

 

[Jessica Booker]

Hi there, been following this thread and would like to get some advice.

I did my law degree in the UK and graduated in 2016, then went on to do a Masters in 2017. I then went back to Malaysia to work a corporate job for a few years (telecoms regulation, but NOT as legal counsel since I never got my qualifications). I'm looking to qualify and work as a solicitor in the UK - should I go for the LPC or SQE? Thinking of self-funding in case my applications this round don't work out.

There isn't really a straight forward answer to this unfortunately. It is very complicated and there are multiple considerations to think about that are going to be different for each candidate.

My general advice is probably not to self-fund either in the first instance until you have secured a TC, unless the firms you are looking to apply to don't sponsor. In the first instance it is probably worthwhile holding off self-funding until you know which route you will take with the firm. That is generally my advice in a normal year but it seems even more appropriate for 2021 given the transition and also that the LPC intake for 2022 will still be very much viable (as the GDL'ers will still be taking that route until 2022).

If you are going to self fund and the money isn't an issue, then generally my advice is go for the LPC purely because it exempts you for SQE stage 1 (but SQE stage 1 does not exempt you from the LPC).

 

[anxiouslawyer]

There isn't really a straight forward answer to this unfortunately. It is very complicated and there are multiple considerations to think about that are going to be different for each candidate.

My general advice is probably not to self-fund either in the first instance until you have secured a TC, unless the firms you are looking to apply to don't sponsor. In the first instance it is probably worthwhile holding off self-funding until you know which route you will take with the firm. That is generally my advice in a normal year but it seems even more appropriate for 2021 given the transition and also that the LPC intake for 2022 will still be very much viable (as the GDL'ers will still be taking that route until 2022).

If you are going to self fund and the money isn't an issue, then generally my advice is go for the LPC purely because it exempts you for SQE stage 1 (but SQE stage 1 does not exempt you from the LPC).

Thanks for this Jessica - so just to clarify, the LPC will likely still be available as an option in 2022?

With covid and the SQE transition it does seem an especially tricky year. The only concern I have with not starting the SQE/LPC this year is that I get older and then have to wait another year to start the route to qualification 😅

 

[Velikilawyer123]

@Jessica Booker Hi Jess, I completed a law degree in the UK back in 2018 and since then I've finished an LLM abroad and come back to start working in the UK, and am currently applying for TCs (hopefully might secure one this year as I have 2 VSs coming up). Correct me if I'm wrong, but since I completed my law degree already, that technically means I am eligible to do the standard route (i.e. LPC, not SQE) at any time up until like 2030?

Do you know if firms might insist on me doing the SQE with them anyway, even if I would be eligible to do the LPC, just to be in the same group as my future trainee cohort?