Interview/Open Day/Vacation Scheme Updates- Coronavirus

[Jaysen]

Had a couple of people reach out after being upset by this. Just a few thoughts:

1. If you weren't one of the people who were offered a training contract, that's going to feel really tough (particularly because I believe some learned that it was a 'majority' through Legal Cheek). It's completely fair to be upset by this, I would be too.

2. Just because you weren't offered a TC doesn't mean you're a weak candidate, even though it may feel that way. The standards for assessing VS v TC are quite different and it's likely the case that the firm just needs more time to see you in action before it can offer you a TC.

3. It's far from ideal, but you still have the winter vac scheme! That's now on your CV, plus you've still got the opportunity to convert that into your TC offer.

Please take this advice to heart.

I wouldn’t necessarily believe crude language like “majority” from a site like Legal Cheek. There is no confirmation of this from the firm and there is no substance on how they have been informed it is a majority. I suspect this is journalistic BS!

Given some people would have already been offered from their 2019 winter vacation scheme, I doubt it is a majority.

Just to add to this, Hogan Lovells recently confirmed to a candidate that it wasn't a 'majority' that were offered TCs. I just want to highlight the importance of questioning whether the information you read on these sites is all true, especially where it's user-reported or supposedly 'coming from an insider'. That doesn't just apply to sites like Legal Cheek either but here too!

 

[NourJ]

My vac scheme isn't due to take place until the end of June, however I haven't heard anything from the firm since I returned my screening forms and seat choices. I'm debating getting in touch with them, however don't want to be a pest considering they will be dealing with a significant workload. What does everyone else think?

Are on the LL June Vac Scheme by any chance?

 

[amb98]

Pinsent Masons have also transferred their summer scheme to an online internship, according to this Legal Cheek article:

https://www.legalcheek.com/2020/04/pinsent-masons-offers-virtual-summer-vacation-scheme/

HL's approach imo now looks better as you at the very least (if you do not get a TC) get the opportunity to experience the firm and its culture, and participate in real work. With the online approach, not only is it difficult to judge one's performance, but seems quite unfair on those who do not have access to the necessary space or equipment.

 

[Jessica Booker]

Pinsent Masons have also transferred their summer scheme to an online internship, according to this Legal Cheek article:

https://www.legalcheek.com/2020/04/pinsent-masons-offers-virtual-summer-vacation-scheme/

HL's approach imo now looks better as you at the very least (if you do not get a TC) get the opportunity to experience the firm and its culture, and participate in real work. With the online approach, not only is it difficult to judge one's performance, but seems quite unfair on those who do not have access to the necessary space or equipment.

Space is not an issue - their own staff will have similar issues with space at home. They will understand that.

The only equipment you should need is a laptop and wifi.

 

[amb98]

Space is not an issue - their own staff will have similar issues with space at home. They will understand that.

The only equipment you should need is a laptop and wifi.

Not everyone will have access to stable wifi unfortunately, making it difficult to hold video calls and the like. I am hopeful that firms will be understanding of this!

As an overall package however, a scheme at the firm's office would be very much preferred as it gives you more of a realistic and valuable insight into the life as a trainee than an online virtual scheme (which many firms offer anyway), but I do understand not all firms are able to offer winter schemes.

 

[Jessica Booker]

Not everyone will have access to stable wifi unfortunately, making it difficult to hold video calls and the like. I am hopeful that firms will be understanding of this!

As an overall package however, a scheme at the firm's office would be very much preferred as it gives you more of a realistic and valuable insight into the life as a trainee than an online virtual scheme (which many firms offer anyway), but I do understand not all firms are able to offer winter schemes.

of course they will. They will have plenty of their own staff with these same issues.

I would ask them whether they can provide any support with Wi-fi if you are particularly concerned about it, or look for a way to increase your Wi-fi (if you can).

If you really think it is an issue, it’s worth while exploring what options you will have to solve the issue before it happens.

This could be the way of working in the future - being based in offices could easily be a thing of the past.

 

[gg999]

Space is not an issue - their own staff will have similar issues with space at home. They will understand that.

The only equipment you should need is a laptop and wifi.

I have to disagree with you. Space is and will always be an issue. As someone that shares a room with 2 brothers I would literally have no space at all to sit an concentrate on completing online tasks that are part of a virtual vacation scheme. I can imagine a lot of other people being in a similar tough situation. In addition, I come from a very dysfunctional family and I cannot imagine completing one under my circumstances at home.

I feel like a minority of trainees will have these issues as a lot of them will still be in their own flats/apartments and have their own rooms for privacy. Especially if they followed the guidance and stayed put instead of fleeing back to their parental homes in the countryside/home counties.

I do not think virtual vacation schemes are the way forward, I feel like a lot of firms can learn from the approach Hogan Lovells took by giving those that performed the strongest direct TC offers and then giving the opportunity for the others to undertake a winter vacation scheme.

Just my two cents.

 

[Jessica Booker]

I have to disagree with you. Space is and will always be an issue. As someone that shares a room with 2 brothers I would literally have no space at all to sit an concentrate on completing online tasks that are part of a virtual vacation scheme. I can imagine a lot of other people being in a similar tough situation. In addition, I come from a very dysfunctional family and I cannot imagine completing one under my circumstances at home.

I feel like a minority of trainees will have these issues as a lot of them will still be in their own flats/apartments and have their own rooms for privacy. Especially if they followed the guidance and stayed put instead of fleeing back to their parental homes in the countryside/home counties.

I do not think virtual vacation schemes are the way forward, I feel like a lot of firms can learn from the approach Hogan Lovells took by giving those that performed the strongest direct TC offers and then giving the opportunity for the others to undertake a winter vacation scheme.

Just my two cents.

Firms will have staff with the same issues, and a lot more distractions. I really wouldn’t worry about the firm’s attitude towards this - they will have had several months of their employees experiencing these same issues.

I hate to think how many meetings I have had in recent weeks where people have been crowded around a dining table with 2-3 housemates all talking at the same time on similar video calls.

I understand the difficulties of working for home. But adapting in these situations will be important - this could be a way of working for a while.

 

[Jessica Booker]

If you are someone with these concerns around virtual internships and are based in London, if restrictions are lifted and people can travel to work, I can offer 2 desks in my office in West Kensington.

 

[Jessica Booker]

But this may mean that many candidates cannot be assessed on an equal footing to their counterparts? A vac scheme is meant to level the playing field, not exacerbate pre-existing structural disadvantages.

Why are you assuming they cannot be assessed on an equal footing?

 

[Jessica Booker]

If you are concerned about this, ask to delay your virtual internship. Ask to do it later in 2020 or even in 2021 - if you are back at uni then, you’ll have access to facilitates that will provide you with a better working environment.

 

[amb98]

If one is completing a virtual vac scheme in a crowded bedroom, surely they are at a disadvantage compared to a candidate who, for example, is completing the scheme in a large country house with an office. I completely understand the busy office point that you make, but it just seems that the virtual scheme may make it difficult for some to show their true potential.

I do agree that completing a vac scheme in the same office building as others would be more of a level playing field, as a crowded room can be distracting amongst other things.

But as Jessica has said, firms are very understanding of these issues and if you make them aware of your circumstances they will take this into account when assessing you and you could use it to you advantage, in terms of displaying your adaptability!

 

[Jessica Booker]

If one is completing a virtual vac scheme in a crowded bedroom, surely they are at a disadvantage compared to a candidate who, for example, is completing the scheme in a large country house with an office. I completely understand the busy office point that you make, but it just seems that the virtual scheme may make it difficult for some to show their true potential.

same could be said of people in a vacation scheme in an office though.

How do you know the person that comes into an office isn’t exhausted because they didn’t sleep because they share a room with people who kept them awake?

Or the person who is holding down their part time job over the weekend?

Or the person who commutes on a train for two hours each way each day?

What if someone has some form of ADHD while another doesn’t?

The key to all of this is COMMUNICATION!

Explain your circumstances to those you are working with. Explain the difficulties you face - they will have their own. They are generally normal human beings who have experienced their own shit to deal with in life - they get it, and will understand. But you have to explain it to them...

Also...

Find ways to make the difficulties work better for you (eg start early, work late, work around people you live with).

Look for solutions - unless we are still in complete lockdown, there are likely to be places you can work from.

Can you find a key worker who needs someone to look after their dog/pet during the day? Could you use their flat/house to work from?

Can you find a relative/friend to live with for the period of the time of the internship where things might be quieter/more productive?

Can you use a cheap co-working space (and if so, can the firm cover the costs of it)?

Can your university provide support?

Can the firm provide support?

You’ve got to take the approach of thinking, what if we never go back to working in offices. How would you adapt/survive then?

 

[GlamB]

I have to disagree with you. Space is and will always be an issue. As someone that shares a room with 2 brothers I would literally have no space at all to sit an concentrate on completing online tasks that are part of a virtual vacation scheme. I can imagine a lot of other people being in a similar tough situation. In addition, I come from a very dysfunctional family and I cannot imagine completing one under my circumstances at home.

I feel like a minority of trainees will have these issues as a lot of them will still be in their own flats/apartments and have their own rooms for privacy. Especially if they followed the guidance and stayed put instead of fleeing back to their parental homes in the countryside/home counties.

I do not think virtual vacation schemes are the way forward, I feel like a lot of firms can learn from the approach Hogan Lovells took by giving those that performed the strongest direct TC offers and then giving the opportunity for the others to undertake a winter vacation scheme.

Just my two cents.

I agree with this. I do understand where Jessica is coming from. It's just that sometimes things are not that easy. It's not just about having a working space at your home/having wifi. I've been working with students from disadvantaged backgrounds at my uni for the past two years and frankly, some of the challenges they have to deal with are unimaginable. We have students who don't have their own laptop and have to use loaned ones from the uni library. When the uni closed down and we were all sent home, a lot of them were left without anything they could use to do their work or having to share an old family computer with 3 other siblings. We have students trying to finish their essays on their phones because there is no other way for them to do it and the only support given to them by the university was to defer the year.

A lot of students are from very unsupportive families/abusive households where parents don't understand the value of education/internship opportunities. I had students calling me sobbing because they were left with all the caring responsibilities for their siblings, others telling me about their parents being verbally abusive to them and using them as free maids. These students are struggling to do their uni work let alone a virtual internship.

Is this the norm for the majority of the student population? Absolutely not but there are still students who have to deal with this sort of things and I can't imagine any of them being able to perform as well as if they were in the office or even in their uni halls. On the other hand, students like me who have a supportive family, their own room/working space and a laptop would clearly have an advantage. I understand that sometimes there's not much the firms can do other than go virtual and that's fine but let's not frame this debate as ''you should be able to adapt'' because for some people it's just not possible.


Just thought I would add another point of view. This is an unprecedented situation not only for the firms but also for the students. Let's hope it soon passes and we'll be able to get at least some of the normality back!

 

[Jessica Booker]

I agree with this. I do understand where Jessica is coming from. It's just that sometimes things are not that easy. It's not just about having a working space at your home/having wifi. I've been working with students from disadvantaged backgrounds at my uni for the past two years and frankly, some of the challenges they have to deal with are unimaginable. We have students who don't have their own laptop and have to use loaned ones from the uni library. When the uni closed down and we were all sent home, a lot of them were left without anything they could use to do their work or having to share an old family computer with 3 other siblings. We have students trying to finish their essays on their phones because there is no other way for them to do it and the only support given to them by the university was to defer the year.

A lot of students are from very unsupportive families/abusive households where parents don't understand the value of education/internship opportunities. I had students calling me sobbing because they were left with all the caring responsibilities for their siblings, others telling me about their parents being verbally abusive to them and using them as free maids. These students are struggling to do their uni work let alone a virtual internship.

Is this the norm for the majority of the student population? Absolutely not but there are still students who have to deal with this sort of things and I can't imagine any of them being able to perform as well as if they were in the office or even in their uni halls. On the other hand, students like me who have a supportive family, their own room/working space and a laptop would clearly have an advantage. I understand that sometimes there's not much the firms can do other than go virtual and that's fine but let's not frame this debate as ''you should be able to adapt'' because for some people it's just not possible.


Just thought I would add another point of view. This is an unprecedented situation not only for the firms but also for the students. Let's hope it soon passes and we'll be able to get at least some of the normality back!

I too work with candidates like this. I understand the circumstances and they aren't something that disappear just because someone is in an office.

This is way I said communication is key, not only to your employer but as to the people you live with. Learning to adapt and communicate in these situations is vital - you can't expect a firm to provide something different that is outside of reasonable adjustment, but what you can expect them to do it understand your circumstances - we all have them.

If you don't have a laptop, ask the firm to provide you with one.

If you don’t think you can work from home now, ask for your virtual internship to be moved until a later date when you live outside of that environment.

This isn’t a “you should be able to adapt” this is a “you will need to” conversation. That goes for everyone. Undoubtedly some will find it harder than others, but how do you expect a firm to understand why it might be more difficult for you, unless you communicate it to them?

 

[GlamB]

I too work with candidates like this. I understand the circumstances and they aren't something that disappear just because someone is in an office.

This is way I said communication is key, not only to your employer but as to the people you live with. Learning to adapt and communicate in these situations is vital - you can't expect a firm to provide something different that is outside of reasonable adjustment, but what you can expect them to do it understand your circumstances - we all have them.

If you don't have a laptop, ask the firm to provide you with one.

If you don’t think you can work from home now, ask for your virtual internship to be moved until a later date when you live outside of that environment.

This isn’t a “you should be able to adapt” this is a “you will need to” conversation. That goes for everyone. Undoubtedly some will find it harder than others, but how do you expect a firm to understand why it might be more difficult for you, unless you communicate it to them?

I'm not saying that people should not have a conversation with the firms because they absolutely should. I'm just trying to point out how difficult this might be for some/why they might be worried to do so. It is easy for all of us to say that here but if I were in that situation, I can imagine I would find it quite hard too.

How many people would be comfortable asking a firm where they want to make an impression for a laptop? Would the firm be willing to go through all that trouble for a 3-day-long online internship? I don't know the answer to the second question but I can imagine many applicants not being comfortable making such demands for a variety of reasons, justified or not. Communication is key, I agree but when you are in a position where you feel like everything can affect your chances of getting a TC, it's difficult.


Anyway, I didn't mean to flood this nice update thread with the sort of conversation which should probably take place elsewhere, so all I'm going to say is fingers crossed everybody and hope it all works out for us in the end!

 

[Jessica Booker]

I'm not saying that people should not have a conversation with the firms because they absolutely should. I'm just trying to point out how difficult this might be for some/why they might be worried to do so. It is easy for all of us to say that here but if I were in that situation, I can imagine I would find it quite hard too.

How many people would be comfortable asking a firm where they want to make an impression for a laptop? Would the firm be willing to go through all that trouble for a 3-day-long online internship? I don't know the answer to the second question but I can imagine many applicants not being comfortable making such demands for a variety of reasons, justified or not. Communication is key, I agree but when you are in a position where you feel like everything can affect your chances of getting a TC, it's difficult.


Anyway, I didn't mean to flood this nice update thread with the sort of conversation which should probably take place elsewhere, so all I'm going to say is fingers crossed everybody and hope it all works out for us in the end!

This is clearly an important conversation to have. I think it is vital we have this type of discussion on these forums.

Being afraid to ask questions is something people need to get better at - and that goes for all candidates (and even trainees) on all matters. It’s generally not what you ask but how you ask for it as to how it will be perceived. Anxiety/worry about asking questions will only stop you exploring options and finding solutions - that’s basically your job as a lawyer, people need to get used to doing it.

Most commercial firms will have a laptop they can lend you. It isn’t a big ask to a law firm. The worst that will happen is they say no and that has no impact you you as an individual, and doesn’t put you in any different situation than you were before you asked the question. In fact you could be viewed more positively by being seen as being proactive in trying to solve a problem.

 

[Helena]

This is clearly an important conversation to have. I think it is vital we have this type of discussion on these forums.

Being afraid to ask questions is something people need to get better at - and that goes for all candidates (and even trainees) on all matters. It’s generally not what you ask but how you ask for it.

Most commercial firms will have a laptop they can lend you. It isn’t a big ask to a law firm.

I'm not saying that people should not have a conversation with the firms because they absolutely should. I'm just trying to point out how difficult this might be for some/why they might be worried to do so. It is easy for all of us to say that here but if I were in that situation, I can imagine I would find it quite hard too.

How many people would be comfortable asking a firm where they want to make an impression for a laptop? Would the firm be willing to go through all that trouble for a 3-day-long online internship? I don't know the answer to the second question but I can imagine many applicants not being comfortable making such demands for a variety of reasons, justified or not. Communication is key, I agree but when you are in a position where you feel like everything can affect your chances of getting a TC, it's difficult.


Anyway, I didn't mean to flood this nice update thread with the sort of conversation which should probably take place elsewhere, so all I'm going to say is fingers crossed everybody and hope it all works out for us in the end!

I have been reading this latest discussion with empathy and understanding on both parts. (I have had round two of my treatment and today is a better day for engaging.) I completely understand the difficulties many face and the fear too of coming over as needy to a firm where one aspires to end up working. That said, I have to agree entirely with @Jessica Booker. You will never be judged for being pro-active as surely that is exactly the sort of quality needed to be a great lawyer. Resilience in moments of adversity. Finding a way through, resolving a potential issue through open and honest discussion.

The people working in these firms are human. I think sometimes we can lose sight of that when we are in this arduous process and it is only natural, particularly at the moment, to feel that the Gods are working against you. Believe me, I feel that. But learning to overcome obstacles in a transparent way can really only work in your favour. I can only see benefits from reaching out to a firm to explain the difficulties, asking where necessary for support. You will be viewed as a person who is willing to strive to reach the end goal.

Keep going everyone and believe in yourselves.

 

[Alice G]

I have been reading this latest discussion with empathy and understanding on both parts. (I have had round two of my treatment and today is a better day for engaging.) I completely understand the difficulties many face and the fear too of coming over as needy to a firm where one aspires to end up working. That said, I have to agree entirely with @Jessica Booker. You will never be judged for being pro-active as surely that is exactly the sort of quality needed to be a great lawyer. Resilience in moments of adversity. Finding a way through, resolving a potential issue through open and honest discussion.

The people working in these firms are human. I think sometimes we can lose sight of that when we are in this arduous process and it is only natural, particularly at the moment, to feel that the Gods are working against you. Believe me, I feel that. But learning to overcome obstacles in a transparent way can really only work in your favour. I can only see benefits from reaching out to a firm to explain the difficulties, asking where necessary for support. You will be viewed as a person who is willing to strive to reach the end goal.

Keep going everyone and believe in yourselves.

Very well said @Helena. I too have been watching the discussion and I am very empathetic to all that has been said.

I agree on your point about firms being fundamentally human and I really do not think anyone should worry about a firm judging them or holding anything against them. Though I also appreciate where that concern comes from as I have felt similar worries in the past too like when I first started applying and meeting firms and worried whether the questions I was asking were too basic and possibly a bit silly. But my thinking on this changed when I thought to myself: would I want to work for a firm who would hold something like that against someone? The answer would be no. Having said this, I really want to reiterate that these conversations would not hinder you - it takes great courage to be so candid and honest about things like this and agree with @Helena - these things would only be applauded.

 

[Jessica Booker]

I understand my posts may have upset/angered people.

I will always tell people straight on here and that often means telling people messages they don’t want to hear. However, I am genuinely trying to help people.

Prior to this craziness I dealt with many instances where people’s personal circumstances meant things were more difficult for them in a vacation scheme than others. The only way I could help them is if they asked for support. I think people would be surprised how many who work in law firms will have had similar challenges - not everyone who works in a firm is a fee earner or a trainee that have the luxury of fleeing to Mum and Dad’s in suburbia.