How ambitious should I be with my VS applications?

[jn21.apps]

Hi all,

Some background: I'm going into the final year of my LLB at a mid-RG uni (Uni of Nottingham). 2020-21 was my first application cycle; I applied unsuccessfully to ~20 firms ranging from MC to National Firms' regional offices. Having discovered the TCLA and JMR only a few weeks ago, I now know why I was unsuccessful. I did not do enough research into the firms I applied to, application technique, and wider business awareness. Truthfully, I severely underestimated how difficult it is to get a VS.

This has left me at a bit of an impasse as to the upcoming application cycle. I want to focus on writing high quality applications to a lower quantity of firms; however, the low quality of my applications last cycle has made it difficult to pinpoint how ambitious I should be with regards to the level of firms I apply to this cycle (hence this post).

My biggest priority this cycle is to secure a VS by any means and then (hopefully) a TC through the VS or by direct application to a different firm. I also want to train in London (I live there), but I am willing to compromise on this. Essentially, I am willing to compromise on anything to secure a TC before the end of my third year.

My grades are OK; I got a mid-2.1 overall in my first year and 68 overall in my second year (got a first in 2 modules but was brought down by a low 2.1 in one module). However, my work experience and extracurriculars are sub-par at best. I've done 1 open day (at BCLP), virtual internships (legal cheek, bright network), and a couple of Forage courses. I'm general secretary of a committee at uni, and I play team sports and a couple of instruments . This is no excuse, but repeated lockdowns and subsequent VS rejections adversely affected my motivation. As a result, I wasted my second year at university when I could have been doing activities to boost my applications. I am already trying to change this, but I feel it might be a bit too late to do in time for this cycle.

Currently, my list of potential firms to apply to consists of mostly national (Eversheds, Pinsent Masons etc.), mid-tier (Reed Smith, Bird and Bird etc.), and a couple of SC firms (BCLP and Dentons). I selected these from a balance of entry requirements, total TCs, Oxbridge/RG/Other trainee ratio, and training areas I am interested in.

Am I being too ambitious or not ambitious enough? Is my criteria for selecting firms appropriate? Is it realistic for me to expect to get a TC by the end of the academic year?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Jessica Booker]

Hi all,

Some background: I'm going into the final year of my LLB at a mid-RG uni (Uni of Nottingham). 2020-21 was my first application cycle; I applied unsuccessfully to ~20 firms ranging from MC to National Firms' regional offices. Having discovered the TCLA and JMR only a few weeks ago, I now know why I was unsuccessful. I did not do enough research into the firms I applied to, application technique, and wider business awareness. Truthfully, I severely underestimated how difficult it is to get a VS.

This has left me at a bit of an impasse as to the upcoming application cycle. I want to focus on writing high quality applications to a lower quantity of firms; however, the low quality of my applications last cycle has made it difficult to pinpoint how ambitious I should be with regards to the level of firms I apply to this cycle (hence this post).

My biggest priority this cycle is to secure a VS by any means and then (hopefully) a TC through the VS or by direct application to a different firm. I also want to train in London (I live there), but I am willing to compromise on this. Essentially, I am willing to compromise on anything to secure a TC before the end of my third year.

My grades are OK; I got a mid-2.1 overall in my first year and 68 overall in my second year (got a first in 2 modules but was brought down by a low 2.1 in one module). However, my work experience and extracurriculars are sub-par at best. I've done 1 open day (at BCLP), virtual internships (legal cheek, bright network), and a couple of Forage courses. I'm general secretary of a committee at uni, and I play team sports and a couple of instruments . This is no excuse, but repeated lockdowns and subsequent VS rejections adversely affected my motivation. As a result, I wasted my second year at university when I could have been doing activities to boost my applications. I am already trying to change this, but I feel it might be a bit too late to do in time for this cycle.

Currently, my list of potential firms to apply to consists of mostly national (Eversheds, Pinsent Masons etc.), mid-tier (Reed Smith, Bird and Bird etc.), and a couple of SC firms (BCLP and Dentons). I selected these from a balance of entry requirements, total TCs, Oxbridge/RG/Other trainee ratio, and training areas I am interested in.

Am I being too ambitious or not ambitious enough? Is my criteria for selecting firms appropriate? Is it realistic for me to expect to get a TC by the end of the academic year?

Thanks in advance!

If you build up some more experience in terms of open days or careers events, I think you could apply to any firm you want t apply to based on this information alone.

Your main issue will be what schemes you are eligible for as a finalist, and that may influence your applications more than anything.

PS - I wouldn't consider Nottingham a “mid-tier” RG university (if there is even such a thing).

 

[Dheepa]

I’d agree with Jess. Even if you felt like you didn’t do as much in second year, secretary for a society + playing a sport + playing several musical instruments make a good combination of experiences to draw on for applications. I also think the fact that you’ve done multiple virtual internships puts you in quite a good position.

Out of curiosity, what are the firms you actually want to apply to if you are being ambitious? It doesn’t sound like the firms you listed are necessarily your top choice firms. If I can be brutally honest, it sounds like the only thing holding you back is your perception of what’s good enough for firms (which I completely understand btw I’ve been there). Don’t get bogged down by what people say about how difficult it is to get offers at certain firms - half of them have never been made the offer and so wouldn’t actually know and the other half tend to sometimes blow things out of proportion. You will never know unless you try and if I were you I’d aim as high as possible, you might be very pleasantly surprised by the outcomes. The other thing is the more you actually like the firm you’re applying to the more compelled you’ll be to spend the time and effort writing a good quality application- do you really want to spend time at Open Days with firms that aren’t your first choice?

TLDR: If you’re questioning whether you’re being ambitious enough I’d say you probably aren’t then. You have strong grades and good experiences, I think you stand a good chance with any firm you want.

 

[jn21.apps]

If you build up some more experience in terms of open days or careers events, I think you could apply to any firm you want t apply to based on this information alone.

Your main issue will be what schemes you are eligible for as a finalist, and that may influence your applications more than anything.

PS - I wouldn't consider Nottingham a “mid-tier” RG university (if there is even such a thing).

Thanks for your reply Jessica,

I'm hoping to attend many events come term time. Would you be able to point me to any threads which give information on schemes I would be disadvantaged for as a finalist?

Mid-RG probably wasn't a good choice of words haha. I simply meant in comparison to Oxbridge or London unis.

 

[Jessica Booker]

Thanks for your reply Jessica,

I'm hoping to attend many events come term time. Would you be able to point me to any threads which give information on schemes I would be disadvantaged for as a finalist?

Mid-RG probably wasn't a good choice of words haha. I simply meant in comparison to Oxbridge or London unis.

I haven't got the specifics of eligibility unfortunately - as far as I know we (or other sources) wouldn't have the detail each firm’s eligibility criteria.

Nottingham even compares to London unis btw.

 

[jn21.apps]

I’d agree with Jess. Even if you felt like you didn’t do as much in second year, secretary for a society + playing a sport + playing several musical instruments make a good combination of experiences to draw on for applications. I also think the fact that you’ve done multiple virtual internships puts you in quite a good position.

Out of curiosity, what are the firms you actually want to apply to if you are being ambitious? It doesn’t sound like the firms you listed are necessarily your top choice firms. If I can be brutally honest, it sounds like the only thing holding you back is your perception of what’s good enough for firms (which I completely understand btw I’ve been there). Don’t get bogged down by what people say about how difficult it is to get offers at certain firms - half of them have never been made the offer and so wouldn’t actually know and the other half tend to sometimes blow things out of proportion. You will never know unless you try and if I were you I’d aim as high as possible, you might be very pleasantly surprised by the outcomes. The other thing is the more you actually like the firm you’re applying to the more compelled you’ll be to spend the time and effort writing a good quality application- do you really want to spend time at Open Days with firms that aren’t your first choice?

TLDR: If you’re questioning whether you’re being ambitious enough I’d say you probably aren’t then. You have strong grades and good experiences, I think you stand a good chance with any firm you want.

Thanks for your reply Dheepa,

If I was being ambitious I would mostly only apply to SC firms such as Ashurst, BCLP, Norton Rose etc. because of the work-life balance being slightly better than MC or American firms, whilst still having the satisfaction and pride of knowing you work for one of the top firms in London. However, I would also be more than happy to spend time and effort writing applications to firms such as Bird and Bird or Reed Smith which are top firms in their own right.

I really appreciate the advice on my own perception of what's good enough. I think the prospect of graduating without having the TC I've always dreamt of has hit home this summer before my last year at uni (looking at linkedin profiles of people who have secured a TC already probably isn't helpful either). I think I'm going to re-evaluate my mentality towards applications and certainly aim as high as realistically possible!

 

[Jessica Booker]

Thanks for your reply Dheepa,

If I was being ambitious I would mostly only apply to SC firms such as Ashurst, BCLP, Norton Rose etc. because of the work-life balance being slightly better than MC or American firms, whilst still having the satisfaction and pride of knowing you work for one of the top firms in London. However, I would also be more than happy to spend time and effort writing applications to firms such as Bird and Bird or Reed Smith which are top firms in their own right.

I really appreciate the advice on my own perception of what's good enough. I think the prospect of graduating without having the TC I've always dreamt of has hit home this summer before my last year at uni (looking at linkedin profiles of people who have secured a TC already probably isn't helpful either). I think I'm going to re-evaluate my mentality towards applications and certainly aim as high as realistically possible!

Plenty of people secure TC after graduation. There is no need to put an unnecessary timeline/deadline on securing a TC while you are still at uni

You will naturally see more connections on LinkedIn securing TC's now, as your connections are more likely to be at uni and people rarely post when they song secure a TC.

 

[Matt_96]

Hi all,

Some background: I'm going into the final year of my LLB at a mid-RG uni (Uni of Nottingham). 2020-21 was my first application cycle; I applied unsuccessfully to ~20 firms ranging from MC to National Firms' regional offices. Having discovered the TCLA and JMR only a few weeks ago, I now know why I was unsuccessful. I did not do enough research into the firms I applied to, application technique, and wider business awareness. Truthfully, I severely underestimated how difficult it is to get a VS.

This has left me at a bit of an impasse as to the upcoming application cycle. I want to focus on writing high quality applications to a lower quantity of firms; however, the low quality of my applications last cycle has made it difficult to pinpoint how ambitious I should be with regards to the level of firms I apply to this cycle (hence this post).

My biggest priority this cycle is to secure a VS by any means and then (hopefully) a TC through the VS or by direct application to a different firm. I also want to train in London (I live there), but I am willing to compromise on this. Essentially, I am willing to compromise on anything to secure a TC before the end of my third year.

My grades are OK; I got a mid-2.1 overall in my first year and 68 overall in my second year (got a first in 2 modules but was brought down by a low 2.1 in one module). However, my work experience and extracurriculars are sub-par at best. I've done 1 open day (at BCLP), virtual internships (legal cheek, bright network), and a couple of Forage courses. I'm general secretary of a committee at uni, and I play team sports and a couple of instruments . This is no excuse, but repeated lockdowns and subsequent VS rejections adversely affected my motivation. As a result, I wasted my second year at university when I could have been doing activities to boost my applications. I am already trying to change this, but I feel it might be a bit too late to do in time for this cycle.

Currently, my list of potential firms to apply to consists of mostly national (Eversheds, Pinsent Masons etc.), mid-tier (Reed Smith, Bird and Bird etc.), and a couple of SC firms (BCLP and Dentons). I selected these from a balance of entry requirements, total TCs, Oxbridge/RG/Other trainee ratio, and training areas I am interested in.

Am I being too ambitious or not ambitious enough? Is my criteria for selecting firms appropriate? Is it realistic for me to expect to get a TC by the end of the academic year?

Thanks in advance!

Right, so there's a lot to unpack here.

Firstly, regarding securing a VS, aim for quality applications first and foremost. However, I might differ from a lot of members here in saying that you should always be aiming to apply to as many firms as you can whilst keeping the quality as high as you can. You don't need to do more than 30+ apps (which is what I did), but I think aiming for about 20ish is a good idea. Once you've got a feel for what a good app looks like (and the app bank in TCLA premium here can be really helpful) keep using it. Most firms ask the same questions, so as long as you tailor the parts of your answer that matter to each one, you will be able to pump out a fair few!

The reason why I say you should do this is timing. Some law firms had increases in their app numbers of up to 70% this cycle thanks to Covid. The quality of candidates is going to be super high for the next few cycles, and law firms can afford to be very picky, so applying for a larger number of firms will give you a better chance.

Secondly, apply for a range of firms. I think you've got the right idea applying to regional offices and firms of different sizes, because it's exactly what I did. Don't just restrict yourself e.g. to the MC and SC firms. They get thousands of applications a year from candidates with exceptional grades and work experience. Always make room for midsize and smaller firms that do the work you are interested in. They get less apps, increasing your chances and once you get in, you can always move later if you qualify into a practice these more aspirational firms are strong in.

For grades, a high 2:1 (65 and above) will be fine for pretty much every firm. Don't pay any attention to Oxbridge statistics. You are already at a Russell Group uni and will have access to law fairs and networking opportunities that are broadly equivalent. Unless you are looking to become a Barrister, the Oxbridge bonus just doesn't matter.

On your work experience, it seems fine to me. What matters is not really what you do, but how you sell it, which feeds back into making quality apps. I didn't really get this until I saw what successful ones looked like and applied that style to my own experiences. But as some general pointers, make sure to quantify any results you attained from doing a task (e.g. came 2nd place in X music tournament or ran a budget of £30k for 500 members in Y student society) and tie the skills you learnt back to the qualities the firm is looking for (resilience, teamwork, empathy, communication skills and focus being key buzzwords).

Finally, get someone else to check your applications. You have no idea how you come across if you only ask yourself for advice!

Other than this, I second everything else said above.

 

[Dheepa]

Thanks for your reply Dheepa,

If I was being ambitious I would mostly only apply to SC firms such as Ashurst, BCLP, Norton Rose etc. because of the work-life balance being slightly better than MC or American firms, whilst still having the satisfaction and pride of knowing you work for one of the top firms in London. However, I would also be more than happy to spend time and effort writing applications to firms such as Bird and Bird or Reed Smith which are top firms in their own right.

I really appreciate the advice on my own perception of what's good enough. I think the prospect of graduating without having the TC I've always dreamt of has hit home this summer before my last year at uni (looking at linkedin profiles of people who have secured a TC already probably isn't helpful either). I think I'm going to re-evaluate my mentality towards applications and certainly aim as high as realistically possible!

I really sympathise with the going into third year without a TC anxiety. I struggled with it myself and I know a lot of people on the forum do too. To echo what Jess said, it’s more common to graduate without a TC than it is to get one at university. LinkedIn makes it seem like everyone gets a TC in second year when that couldn’t be farther from the truth. The people who manage to do that are more the exception than the norm. Maybe get off LinkedIn for awhile (I deleted mine in second year haha) and just focus on re-evaluating your app strategy as you said.

Re: which firms you’d be disadvantaged applying to as a final year student - the only one that comes to mind is Clifford Chance. Most firms are pretty happy to take on final years and even graduates on vacation schemes. I did a VS at NRF and they had plenty of final year students (I was in final year!) and even a couple of career changers. Realistically you have a good chance at many of the SC firms, and I hope you do decide to apply to the ones you like!

 

[jn21.apps]

Right, so there's a lot to unpack here.

Firstly, regarding securing a VS, aim for quality applications first and foremost. However, I might differ from a lot of members here in saying that you should always be aiming to apply to as many firms as you can whilst keeping the quality as high as you can. You don't need to do more than 30+ apps (which is what I did), but I think aiming for about 20ish is a good idea. Once you've got a feel for what a good app looks like (and the app bank in TCLA premium here can be really helpful) keep using it. Most firms ask the same questions, so as long as you tailor the parts of your answer that matter to each one, you will be able to pump out a fair few!

The reason why I say you should do this is timing. Some law firms had increases in their app numbers of up to 70% this cycle thanks to Covid. The quality of candidates is going to be super high for the next few cycles, and law firms can afford to be very picky, so applying for a larger number of firms will give you a better chance.

Secondly, apply for a range of firms. I think you've got the right idea applying to regional offices and firms of different sizes, because it's exactly what I did. Don't just restrict yourself e.g. to the MC and SC firms. They get thousands of applications a year from candidates with exceptional grades and work experience. Always make room for midsize and smaller firms that do the work you are interested in. They get less apps, increasing your chances and once you get in, you can always move later if you qualify into a practice these more aspirational firms are strong in.

For grades, a high 2:1 (65 and above) will be fine for pretty much every firm. Don't pay any attention to Oxbridge statistics. You are already at a Russell Group uni and will have access to law fairs and networking opportunities that are broadly equivalent. Unless you are looking to become a Barrister, the Oxbridge bonus just doesn't matter.

On your work experience, it seems fine to me. What matters is not really what you do, but how you sell it, which feeds back into making quality apps. I didn't really get this until I saw what successful ones looked like and applied that style to my own experiences. But as some general pointers, make sure to quantify any results you attained from doing a task (e.g. came 2nd place in X music tournament or ran a budget of £30k for 500 members in Y student society) and tie the skills you learnt back to the qualities the firm is looking for (resilience, teamwork, empathy, communication skills and focus being key buzzwords).

Finally, get someone else to check your applications. You have no idea how you come across if you only ask yourself for advice!

Other than this, I second everything else said above.

Thanks for your reply Matt,

That was sort of my rationale behind applications last year. I will probably do a similar amount with just as much diversity this year just (hopefully) of a much higher quality.

It's encouraging to hear that my grades and university are good enough provided the applications are good quality. Perhaps I'm not giving firms enough credit for their willingness to take on candidates from different academic backgrounds.

As for the work experience, I did not place much emphasis on quantifying my experiences last year, so that is again very helpful.

 

[jn21.apps]

Plenty of people secure TC after graduation. There is no need to put an unnecessary timeline/deadline on securing a TC while you are still at uni

You will naturally see more connections on LinkedIn securing TC's now, as your connections are more likely to be at uni and people rarely post when they song secure a TC.

I really sympathise with the going into third year without a TC anxiety. I struggled with it myself and I know a lot of people on the forum do too. To echo what Jess said, it’s more common to graduate without a TC than it is to get one at university. LinkedIn makes it seem like everyone gets a TC in second year when that couldn’t be farther from the truth. The people who manage to do that are more the exception than the norm. Maybe get off LinkedIn for awhile (I deleted mine in second year haha) and just focus on re-evaluating your app strategy as you said.

Re: which firms you’d be disadvantaged applying to as a final year student - the only one that comes to mind is Clifford Chance. Most firms are pretty happy to take on final years and even graduates on vacation schemes. I did a VS at NRF and they had plenty of final year students (I was in final year!) and even a couple of career changers. Realistically you have a good chance at many of the SC firms, and I hope you do decide to apply to the ones you like!

For me it's more a personal goal rather than a deadline. I know that I will have plenty of opportunities after graduation regardless of a TC. I would still want a TC secured regardless haha.

I try not to give Linkedin too much thought, if any, but it can be a bit alarming sometimes haha.

Thank you for your words of motivation and advice. They've really helped. I'm glad I found TCLA.