General Discussion Thread 2020-21

[Jessica Booker]

Macfarlanes increased their TC intake interestingly

Yes - a good sign, although it maybe where they expect things to pick up by 2022/2023 (which undoubtedly they will).

Will also be interesting to see how firms respond to the SQE. Ultimately hiring numbers are likely to increase, just because pass rates for the SQE are going to be lower than the LPC. Very much like the accountancy firms and banks, I expect some firms will start to recruit around 20%+ more than they actually need, where 20% are likely to fail professional qualifications or not pass probationary periods (the latter of which will exist for the first time in TCs).

 

[JayB]

Yes - a good sign, although it maybe where they expect things to pick up by 2022/2023 (which undoubtedly they will).

Will also be interesting to see how firms respond to the SQE. Ultimately hiring numbers are likely to increase, just because pass rates for the SQE are going to be lower than the LPC. Very much like the accountancy firms and banks, I expect some firms will start to recruit around 20%+ more than they actually need, where 20% are likely to fail professional qualifications or not pass probationary periods (the latter of which will exist for the first time in TCs).

In what intake do you expect the SQE to be rolled out in, will it be in the next 2023 cycle?

Do you know what firms have already started to follow the SQE? Also I’m a bit confused how does the SQE work?

 

[Jessica Booker]

In what intake do you expect the SQE to be rolled out, will it be in the next 2023 cycle?

yes - for many firms 2023 is likely as many of their non-law intake will have to take the SQE by then as the last GDL intake is in January (for Solicitors anyway).

 

[JayB]

yes - for many firms 2023 is likely as many of their non-law intake will have to take the SQE by then as the last GDL intake is in January (for Solicitors anyway).

What will the SQE consist of, as there is so much conflicting information? your thoughts are always concise and better

 

[JayB]

yes - for many firms 2023 is likely as many of their non-law intake will have to take the SQE by then as the last GDL intake is in January (for Solicitors anyway).

So for law students/graduates it will be the 2024 cycle, or will it still be the 2023 cycle for them too?

 

[Jessica Booker]

What will the SQE consist of, as there is so much conflicting information? your thoughts are always concise and better

SQE is 4 components:

1. Stage 1 assessment
2. Stage 2 assessment
3. 2 years’ qualifying work experience
4. Meeting the SRA suitability criteria (what everyone has to complete now anyway)

As it stands (as the assessments are still being piloted)...

SQE1 includes two exams that are single best answer multiple choice (closed book). The two exams are sat together but cover different subjects.

1. Business Law and Practice; Dispute Resolution; Contract; Tort; Legal System of England and Wales; Constitutional and Administrative Law and EU Law and Legal Services
2. Property Practice; Wills and the Administration of Estates; Solicitors Accounts; Land Law; Trusts; Criminal Law and Practice.

For SQE2, you will be assessed in client interviewing with linked attendance note/legal analysis, advocacy, legal writing, legal research, legal drafting and case and matter analysis. This will be much more like a viva (like those seen in medicine) - it will be a mixture of assessed work (eg writing) but also “mock simulations” where I suspect you will meet “actor assessors” playing a role of a client.

Qualifying work experience (QWE) can be accumulated at anytime (pre or post SQE stage 1 and 2). It can be any work a qualified solicitor is willing to sign off (or a designated compliance officer). You can accumulate that QWE across 4 different organisations.

 

[Jessica Booker]

So for law students/graduates it will be the 2024 cycle, or will it still be the 2023 cycle for them too?

I suspect many firms will want to move all trainees to the same system, so suspect they will move at the same time as the non law grads.

If firms did allow both qualifications models to run at the same time, they technically could still offer TCs until 2033 (if I remember correctly). The new system provides much greater flexibility for law firms though - there will be many more advantages of moving to the new system as their regulatory requirements are far less under the SQE than they are under the LPC/TC route.

 

[JayB]

SQE is 4 components:

1. Stage 1 assessment
2. Stage 2 assessment
3. 2 years’ qualifying work experience
4. Meeting the SRA suitability criteria (what everyone has to complete now anyway)

As it stands (as the assessments are still being piloted)...

SQE1 includes two exams that are single best answer multiple choice (closed book). The two exams are sat together but cover different subjects.

1. Business Law and Practice; Dispute Resolution; Contract; Tort; Legal System of England and Wales; Constitutional and Administrative Law and EU Law and Legal Services
2. Property Practice; Wills and the Administration of Estates; Solicitors Accounts; Land Law; Trusts; Criminal Law and Practice.

For SQE2, you will be assessed in client interviewing with linked attendance note/legal analysis, advocacy, legal writing, legal research, legal drafting and case and matter analysis. This will be much more like a viva (like those seen in medicine) - it will be a mixture of assessed work (eg writing) but also “mock simulations” where I suspect you will meet “actor assessors” playing a role of a client.

Qualifying work experience (QWE) can be accumulated at anytime (pre or post SQE stage 1 and 2). It can be any work a qualified solicitor is willing to sign off (or a designated compliance officer). You can accumulate that QWE across 4 different organisations.

Thank you Jessica for the thorough detail. Am I right to assume the QWE is the experience received from the 2-year training contract?

 

[amb98]

I suspect many firms will want to move all trainees to the same system, so suspect they will move at the same time as the non law grads.

If firms did allow both qualifications models to run at the same time, they technically could still offer TCs until 2033 (if I remember correctly). The new system provides much greater flexibility for law firms though - there will be many more advantages of moving to the new system as their regulatory requirements are far less under the SQE than they are under the LPC/TC route.

Hi Jessica,

Do you think it will become more difficult/competitive to obtain NQ positions as there will be more people qualifying through the SQE route, through various forms of qualifying work experience?

 

[Lr1]

Hi Jessica,

Do you think it will become more difficult/competitive to obtain NQ positions as there will be more people qualifying through the SQE route, through various forms of qualifying work experience?

I suspect where you train will become even more important, 4x6 months of an unconnected training contract vs 2 years of developing skills with lawyers who have trained people before. The big training firms will still offer the standard training contract of 2 years. The SQE will just turn a glut of LPC students that can't get a TC into a glut of NQs with shoddy training who can't get NQ positions with firms because of their training.

 

[Jessica Booker]

Thank you Jessica for the thorough detail. Am I right to assume the QWE is the experience received from the 2-year training contract?

it could be a two year training contract, but unlike now it doesn’t have to be.

 

[amb98]

I suspect where you train will become even more important, 4x6 months of an unconnected training contract vs 2 years of developing skills with lawyers who have trained people before. The big training firms will still offer the standard training contract of 2 years. The SQE will just turn a glut of LPC students that can't get a TC into a glut of NQs with shoddy training who can't get NQ positions with firms because of their training.

Thank you for replying. Can you please clarify what you mean by “4x6 months of an unconnected training contract vs 2 years of developing skills with lawyers who have trained people before.”

Is the “unconnected TC” going to be offered under the SQE?

 

[Jessica Booker]

Hi Jessica,

Do you think it will become more difficult/competitive to obtain NQ positions as there will be more people qualifying through the SQE route, through various forms of qualifying work experience?

not necessarily - there could be fewer people (if people are not passing the SQE), especially in the early years of the SQE.

There could be more people qualifying though, so NQ roles could be more difficult to obtain, but I would expect that to only be if you were jumping ship to another firm at NQ.

 

[JayB]

it could be a two year training contract, but unlike now it doesn’t have to be.

But law firms will still offer a two year training contract regardless? I’m sure those who are getting any experience signed off will be less adequate than those with those with a training contract? Well those are my thoughts

 

[Jessica Booker]

I suspect where you train will become even more important, 4x6 months of an unconnected training contract vs 2 years of developing skills with lawyers who have trained people before. The big training firms will still offer the standard training contract of 2 years. The SQE will just turn a glut of LPC students that can't get a TC into a glut of NQs with shoddy training who can't get NQ positions with firms because of their training.

Although this may be the case in some cases, I suspect it won’t be in many. The SQE format allows firms to headhunt “trainees” before the qualified and could even offer them earlier qualification (and qualification salaries) than a firm they train with for 2 years.

For some firms gaining quality, relevant experience at 2-4 firms may be more attractive than 2 years at one firm where two seats were completely irrelevant.

 

[Jessica Booker]

But law firms will still offer a two year training contract regardless? I’m sure those who are getting any experience signed off will be less adequate than those with those with a training contract? Well those are my thoughts

yes - many will continue to offer 2 year programmes. But for the first time they don’t have to commit to the 2 years - if you didn’t pass the SQE or didn’t pass a probation period, you could only be there for less than 6 months.

Firms will be able to offer whatever they want though. They could offer direct roles (with no seat rotations), they could offer 6-12 month contracts.

 

[JayB]

yes - many will continue to offer 2 year programmes. But for the first time they don’t have to commit to the 2 years - if you didn’t pass the SQE or didn’t pass a probation period, you could only be there for less than 6 months.

How long will the probation period be? Around 3-6 months, do trainees at the moment have a probation period? Confused on that sense.

 

[Lr1]

Thank you for replying. Can you please clarify what you mean by “4x6 months of an unconnected training contract vs 2 years of developing skills with lawyers who have trained people before.”

Is the “unconnected TC” going to be offered under the SQE?

Now, a training contract is 24 months and short of a firm firing someone (incredibly rare) by the end you qualify with them. A 2 year contract with the same firm, as it is now and will remain with virtually all training providers, has the training partners watching your training, the training principal watching closer and of course all the benefits of working with a company for 2 years. Also, the City knows the good training firms, it almost acts a guarantee of ability and quality if you train with a decent training firm, essentially you're a good and reliable egg.

People also are known to do complimentary seats in their TCs so by the time they qualify they are a pretty good standard in their chosen practice area. The SQE removes the training principal and training partner requirement, all you need is a solicitor to just sign off on your work- they don't even need a current practising certificate!

I know it sounds bleak, the SQE was meant to remove the LPC gamble but it just pushes the problem a few years down the line. There will be tons of NQs in the market without good training. Not to mention the low standards of it- no essays! Lawyers are writers, 90% of the job is drafting!

I think the one benefit is if you know what you want to do, you could spend your whole TC in that area, as opposed to having to go through 3 practice areas. Having said that though, most practices cover a few areas of law at the same time- corporate finance and banking within an energy transaction for example.

 

[Jessica Booker]

Thank you for replying. Can you please clarify what you mean by “4x6 months of an unconnected training contract vs 2 years of developing skills with lawyers who have trained people before.”

Is the “unconnected TC” going to be offered under the SQE?

If you gained your 12 months experience in a high street firm, before taking the SQE or getting a “training contract” with a MC firm, you could technically qualify a year earlier than someone in your intake who has no previous legal work experience. However, the high street firm experience is unlikely to bring any value to the MC firm, so they may want you to complete two years with them anyway. That’s what “unconnected” could mean.

 

[Jessica Booker]

Not to mention the low standards of it- no essays! Lawyers are writers, 90% of the job is drafting!

I thought drafting was covered in SQE2?