D&I and Representation

[Jessica Booker]

As this thread is around representation, why is it that law firm HR teams are typically composed of a greater number of females than males?

Fewer men want to work in HR - its a similar reason to why you see fewer male teachers and nurses (and lawyers!)

 

[Jessica Booker]

If faced with the difficult decision of selecting between two excellent candidates, would a law firm choose to hire from the under-represented group should the other candidate not fall within this category?

It never comes down to this decision. There will be an excellent candidate who is stronger than the other excellent candidate and the decision will be to hire them.

 

[Jessica Booker]

I value the importance of D&I questionnaires at the end of an application form. However, why do employers ask about a candidate's sexual orientation?

They are called equal opportunities questions - you are likely to be asked questions about:

• Age
• Ethnicity
• Gender
• Religion
• Disabilities
• Sexual Orientation

This information helps employers be able to look at the trends across groups of applicants rather than the individual data associated with each applicant (which is not accessible). This means that employers can understand if they are attracting and recruiting a representative group of people each year or whether they need to do more to either improve their marketing or recruitment processes to ensure their workforce is more representative of the general population/local population.

 

[therealslimshady]

Fewer men want to work in HR - its a similar reason to why you see fewer male teachers and nurses (and lawyers!)

Can this lead to biases in recruitment processes as a HR team composed of a majority of females may favour female candidates over male candidates?

 

[Jessica Booker]

Can this lead to biases in recruitment processes as a HR team composed of a majority of females may favour female candidates over male candidates?

That is a possibility although makes the assumption that women favour women (some evidence to suggest women’s harshest critics are other women).

It also makes the assumption that men are not involved in the recruitment process.

 

[EqualityNonNegotiable]

It doesn't help that law degree courses are around 70% female, so the skew is likely to be seen in candidate populations at all stages.

This has been an issue for nearly 20 years and I don't see it changing anytime soon. When I worked at a firm in 2005, we considered doing a targeted marketing campaign to find more male applicants, but it was swiftly dropped when it was pointed out that from about 3 years PQE, the gender split went the other way.

I think with 70% female candidates, it would make sense for trainee cohorts to be split roughly 70-30.

However, gender split going 'the other way' would mean that let's say out of 30 male and 70 female trainees the 3 year PQE split could end up 28 male to 12 female. This would imply less than 15% retention of female lawyers.

Does that sound accurate? What do you think could be the reasons for such disparity?

 

[Jessica Booker]

I think with 70% female candidates, it would make sense for trainee cohorts to be split roughly 70-30.

However, gender split going 'the other way' would mean that let's say out of 30 male and 70 female trainees the 3 year PQE split could end up 28 male to 12 female. This would imply less than 15% retention of female lawyers.

Does that sound accurate? What do you think could be the reasons for such disparity?

Sorry that was probably bad phrasing on my part - retention of female lawyers is definitely an issue/challenge but it is not as harsh as it being 30% female. In some firms it will still be most lawyers under 5 years PQE will be female.

 

[EqualityNonNegotiable]

Sorry that was probably bad phrasing on my part - retention of female lawyers is definitely an issue/challenge but it is not as harsh as it being 30% female. In some firms it will still be most lawyers under 5 years PQE will be female.

Thank you for clarifying this Jessica!

Are there any law firm specific factors that may be contributing to the retention issue?

 

[Jessica Booker]

Thank you for clarifying this Jessica!

Are there any law firm specific factors that may be contributing to the retention issue?

Not law firm specific as such - it tends to happen in a lot of private sector city or leading professional careers. Chargeable time and time based targets (although not unique to law) puts pressure on working hours though, and that can often be an obstacle for people who have caring responsibilities, and they are predominately women who take those roles (whether children, parents or other family members).

 

[dinoorchestra]

Glad that there is a thread to have a civil discussion around this topic because I think diversity is incredibly important in any profession, including law. I am a visibly disabled candidate. I have to admit that in the process of applying to firms over the past years, I have sometimes become frustrated with the recruitment process for disability reasons or the fact that I have yet to meet a lawyer with the same disability as myself. I deeply appreciate those places that genuinely make an effort to prevent (sub)conscious bias around disability and may even offer Disability Open Days etc.. But unfortunately I had to learn that this is not the same across all firms. However, I remain hopeful for the future. I know it is difficult to drive change, but I am convinced that change will continue to transform firms in this area 🤞

 

[therealslimshady]

Glad that there is a thread to have a civil discussion around this topic because I think diversity is incredibly important in any profession, including law. I am a visibly disabled candidate. I have to admit that in the process of applying to firms over the past years, I have sometimes become frustrated with the recruitment process for disability reasons or the fact that I have yet to meet a lawyer with the same disability as myself. I deeply appreciate those places that genuinely make an effort to prevent (sub)conscious bias around disability and may even offer Disability Open Days etc.. But unfortunately I had to learn that this is not the same across all firms. However, I remain hopeful for the future. I know it is difficult to drive change, but I am convinced that change will continue to transform firms in this area 🤞

I certainly do agree that having a discussion around D&I is important. The topic can come up in law firm assessments such as group exercises as I have experienced this in the past.

 

[Sharon Wu]

My statement was in response to the OP being surprised that the vast majority of the people on a VS were white. If the criteria for representation is 'wider society', in this case I assume that to be the general UK population. If over 80% of the UK population is White, it is likely the case that there will be a significant proportion of White applicants in comparison to BME applicants for vacation schemes. It also follows that, if the criteria by which we measure representation is indeed 'wider society', then I see no issue with White students making up 50-80% of a VS demographic. This would be perfectly representative of a 'wider society' where the White demographic is significantly larger than that of the BME demographic. But often times there seem to be people unhappy with this - but why? If one is aiming for representation, and that representation is, almost self-evidently as you feel, measured by wider society, and wider society is predominantly White, then what's the issue? It would somewhat be the equivalent of going to Washington University of Barbados and being shocked that the vast majority of students are Black.

Where it concerns the criminal justice system, I think there is a strong case for having a representative legal profession, but insofar as white-collar corporate law, I am not convinced that this is a necessity.

"Where it concerns the criminal justice system, I think there is a strong case for having a representative legal profession, but insofar as white-collar corporate law, I am not convinced that this is a necessity."

" there is a stronger case for ethnic representation in criminal justice as opposed to corporate law. The reason for this is a no-brainer, one is concerned with the administration of justice for average civilians (who will vary across race, gender, etc), the other is purely about representing and advising multinational corporations with no legal personality."

It should be shocking, but unfortunately it is not... Bigots do and will always exist.

You've just stated that (1) there is no place for ethnic diversity in commercial law and (2) they should instead enter the criminal justice system. If you cant see how all right minded people would take offence to that, then that's just as shocking...

Its sad to think that one day you could (1) be on a diversity panel, (2) have an input in fair access initiatives (which you will of course destruct), or (3) be a commercial lawyer working with people from all around the world (who you clearly don't think should be there).

Surely, what you are insinuating goes against all race relations acts and the SRA character suitability rules?!

 

[bluerocket]

"Where it concerns the criminal justice system, I think there is a strong case for having a representative legal profession, but insofar as white-collar corporate law, I am not convinced that this is a necessity."

" there is a stronger case for ethnic representation in criminal justice as opposed to corporate law. The reason for this is a no-brainer, one is concerned with the administration of justice for average civilians (who will vary across race, gender, etc), the other is purely about representing and advising multinational corporations with no legal personality."

It should be shocking, but unfortunately it is not... Bigots do and will always exist.

You've just stated that (1) there is no place for ethnic diversity in commercial law and (2) they should instead enter the criminal justice system. If you cant see how all right minded people would take offence to that, then that's just as shocking...

Its sad to think that one day you could (1) be on a diversity panel, (2) have an input in fair access initiatives (which you will of course destruct), or (3) be a commercial lawyer working with people from all around the world (who you clearly don't think should be there).

Surely, what you are insinuating goes against all race relations acts and the SRA character suitability rules?!

Just wanted to chime in because I just found this thread.

By no means taking sides or asserting anyone is wrong or right, just wanted to point out my perspective on this thread of conversation. Firstly, I don't think the OP said "there is no place for ethnic diversity in the commercial law field" nor that [BAME candidates] "should instead go into criminal justice." I think they were expressing they are unconvinced it is a "necessity" for having a diverse commercial law workforce but it is a "necessity" to have a diverse criminal law workforce, which they reasoned with their view that the commercial lawyers represent multinational corporations while criminal lawyers represent people. I don't see any evidence of them suggesting that BAME candidates should enter the criminal profession rather than the commercial profession - this would obviously be problematic. I personally think diversity should be at the top of the agenda for all fields regardless of who they represent or work with - but just wanted to point out that the OP's views seemed a bit more nuanced and less conclusive than has been interpreted.

 

[Sharon Wu]

Just wanted to chime in because I just found this thread.

By no means taking sides or asserting anyone is wrong or right, just wanted to point out my perspective on this thread of conversation. Firstly, I don't think the OP said "there is no place for ethnic diversity in the commercial law field" nor that [BAME candidates] "should instead go into criminal justice." I think they were expressing they are unconvinced it is a "necessity" for having a diverse commercial law workforce but it is a "necessity" to have a diverse criminal law workforce, which they reasoned with their view that the commercial lawyers represent multinational corporations while criminal lawyers represent people. I don't see any evidence of them suggesting that BAME candidates should enter the criminal profession rather than the commercial profession - this would obviously be problematic. I personally think diversity should be at the top of the agenda for all fields regardless of who they represent or work with - but just wanted to point out that the OP's views seemed a bit more nuanced and less conclusive than has been interpreted.

"Where it concerns the criminal justice system, I think there is a strong case for having a representative legal profession, but insofar as white-collar corporate law, I am not convinced that this is a necessity."

This is what the OP stated.
The OP clearly stated that they do not see the need for BAME candidates in Corporate law...

I think its clear that they are being racist!
That's the reason, racism exists.
The OP wasn't even subtle about it.

 

[Rainbowergy]

It's awesome to see someone initiating such an important conversation about diversity and inclusion. Reminds me of a time when my college club struggled with similar issues. We found that open dialogue and listening to diverse perspectives were key. Have you considered reaching out to experts like those at https://federal-lawyer.com/criminal-law/federal-appeals/chicago/ ? They might offer valuable insights to enrich your discussion. Keep up the great work!

 

[Sharon Wu]

It's awesome to see someone initiating such an important conversation about diversity and inclusion. Reminds me of a time when my college club struggled with similar issues. We found that open dialogue and listening to diverse perspectives were key.

Its only great if change comes out of it, rather than being a tick box exercise. Unfortunately there are some who don't think certain groups should be in certain places, and even more who support them. Rather than trying to eradicate the profession of them, the enablers do their best to protect those with what one thought would be outdated views. Conversations are meaningless when those in charge or entering the activity don't actually feel the door should be open to all.