Converting your vacation scheme into a training contract - top tips in 2021

[Jaysen]

Hey all,

A few people have asked about this so I thought we'd create a central thread for 2021. Anyone feel free to share your own top tips on converting a vacation scheme into a training contract.

I'd recommend reading the following threads to kick us off:

Vacation Scheme Preparation

Hi guys, Per my post in the 'hearing back from law firms' thread, I thought I would create this so we can bounce ideas off each other and help each other out with any questions to ensure that we can all (hopefully) get those TC offers after this summer! I'll post my approach today but please...

www.thecorporatelawacademy.com

https://www.thecorporatelawacademy.com/forum/threads/virtual-vacation-schemes-top-tips.2459/
https://www.thecorporatelawacademy.com/convert-your-vacation-scheme-into-a-training-contract/
https://www.thecorporatelawacademy....t-a-vac-scheme-into-a-training-contract.2743/

Best!

Jaysen

 

[Jessica Booker]

Might have said this elsewhere but my thoughts:

- ensure your priorities are right. There maybe times where you have to cancel/postpone an informal coffee meeting because you have been given work to do and you need to do the best in that piece of work.

- Ensure you are clear in your understanding of what has been said to you (often done by asking questions) and to help you remember what has been said, make notes.

- People are often worried they will be seen as stupid/not good enough if they ask questions. Reality is you could be perceived as not interested/perceptive/considerate/motivated if you don’t.

- Really struggling for work? Ask people what’s on the end of their to do list that they keep putting off due to more important work and ask them whether you could help them with that.

- Prepare for things to take a lot longer than you expect. Prepare for things to come back to you past deadlines set. Prepare to have to redraft something several times or having to go and research more aspects of a matter more thoroughly.

- You won’t be expected to do everything on your own or to have all the answers. Utilise the people around you for support. That could be anyone from a PA, to a fellow vac schemer, to a trainee, to someone in a business services role, to a partner.

I could write pages and pages of advice on VS conversions, so if anyone has any specific questions they want answering, feel free to tag me in to a response on here.

 

[thewaythecookiecrumbles]

@Jessica Booker What is the etiquette with requesting a virtual coffee with someone who works at the firm? How would someone go about actually doing this? How many should we be making? I'm struggling to picture it as anything but awkward especially because its online...

 

[Dheepa]

@Jessica Booker What is the etiquette with requesting a virtual coffee with someone who works at the firm? How would someone go about actually doing this? How many should we be making? I'm struggling to picture it as anything but awkward especially because its online...

You can go about this two ways:

1. Research the people at the firm and reach out to the ones that you'd genuinely be interested in talking to (whether for the work they do or because you'd like to know more about their personal experience)
2. Reach out for a follow up coffee or chat to people who've given presentations or talks throughout the scheme

I actually found it to be way less awkward setting these up online. Just send an email explaining that you're a VS student and are interested in learning more about X practice area and the work that this person does. Some people will be too busy to even respond to that email but most will respond positively. Then just ask for a suitable time in their schedule and send over a zoom link. Alternatively they could just prefer a quick call on the phone, but either way they will let you know in advance so it's really nothing to be too worried about.

It's not a necessity to set up these informal chats at all and so in terms of how many to do, it's completely up to you! Just be wary of managing your time i.e. ensure that you aren't organising too many and that it won't eat into your time for actually working on any tasks you've been given

 

[thewaythecookiecrumbles]

You can go about this two ways:

1. Research the people at the firm and reach out to the ones that you'd genuinely be interested in talking to (whether for the work they do or because you'd like to know more about their personal experience)
2. Reach out for a follow up coffee or chat to people who've given presentations or talks throughout the scheme

I actually found it to be way less awkward setting these up online. Just send an email explaining that you're a VS student and are interested in learning more about X practice area and the work that this person does. Some people will be too busy to even respond to that email but most will respond positively. Then just ask for a suitable time in their schedule and send over a zoom link. Alternatively they could just prefer a quick call on the phone, but either way they will let you know in advance so it's really nothing to be too worried about.

It's not a necessity to set up these informal chats at all and so in terms of how many to do, it's completely up to you! Just be wary of managing your time i.e. ensure that you aren't organising too many and that it won't eat into your time for actually working on any tasks you've been given

Thank you, Dheepa!

 

[Daniel Boden]

@Jessica Booker What is the etiquette with requesting a virtual coffee with someone who works at the firm? How would someone go about actually doing this? How many should we be making? I'm struggling to picture it as anything but awkward especially because its online...

You can go about this two ways:

1. Research the people at the firm and reach out to the ones that you'd genuinely be interested in talking to (whether for the work they do or because you'd like to know more about their personal experience)
2. Reach out for a follow up coffee or chat to people who've given presentations or talks throughout the scheme

I actually found it to be way less awkward setting these up online. Just send an email explaining that you're a VS student and are interested in learning more about X practice area and the work that this person does. Some people will be too busy to even respond to that email but most will respond positively. Then just ask for a suitable time in their schedule and send over a zoom link. Alternatively they could just prefer a quick call on the phone, but either way they will let you know in advance so it's really nothing to be too worried about.

It's not a necessity to set up these informal chats at all and so in terms of how many to do, it's completely up to you! Just be wary of managing your time i.e. ensure that you aren't organising too many and that it won't eat into your time for actually working on any tasks you've been given

Just to add to @Dheepa's point, most firms organise practice area talks for the vacation scheme candidate with various lawyers from all sorts of different of areas so it's normal to follow-up with them after the talks have taken place and arrange to ask any further questions you may have

 

[Dheepa]

Just thought I'd add some tips on approaching work you have been given:

1. Always take the time to think about the task. Consider things like:
   • Why am I being asked to do this? How does this fit into my supervisor's own work on the matter?
   • How does it benefit the client?
   • What ultimate result do they want?
2. Ask as many questions as you want. It is much better to clear up any confusion you might have at the outset rather than realising halfway through that you might have misunderstood something (with not much time to fix it)
3. Take some time to think about the work separately on your own first. This will help you identify the true extent of what you know, what you don't know, what you can research on your own, and what you really do need additional clarification on from your supervisor. The little bit of effort you put in initially will go a long way in showing that you are able to handle a piece of work on your own first.
4. Make sure that you clarify the deadlines of your work so you can plan your time accordingly
5. Do not take on additional voluntary tasks for the sake of doing so. Always assess if you have the capacity to deliver the work to a high standard before saying yes. Quality over quantity.
6. Plan some time to ask your trainee buddy to review a draft of your work before handing it in to GR or your supervisor. I think this point depends in part on who the work provider is but generally if you need feedback on anything you're handing in to an associate or partner, ask your trainee buddy first.
7. If you do have capacity to take on more work, send an email out to your supervisor and trainee buddy slightly before you anticipate being done with your current workload. That way you are giving them some time to think about what additional work they can get you involved in as well.
8. Ask for feedback where possible. Not only does this show a willingness to improve but it will prevent you from making the same mistakes in work that you have to complete for someone else. You may also get asked in final interviews about any issues you encountered while doing the work and having your supervisor's feedback to go off of will help you reflect and provide an honest answer.
9. Ask your trainee buddy if there are firm templates that you can use. For example if you've been asked to produce a research note or a memo, firms usually have standard templates for this and using them just adds an extra polish to your work.

 

[Jessica Booker]

@Jessica Booker What is the etiquette with requesting a virtual coffee with someone who works at the firm? How would someone go about actually doing this? How many should we be making? I'm struggling to picture it as anything but awkward especially because its online...

You just politely ask giving your availability.

How many is going to depend on too many variables. But in short, are you just doing it to fill your time (probably not a good enough justification for asking someone) or do you have a clear reason for asking that specific person for a coffee conversation (much better)? If there is no reason for asking them beyond filling your time, it probably isn’t worthwhile asking them. Same goes for if you asked 5 trainees, what are you really going to get out of the fifth conversation that you couldn’t have got out of the 1st or 2nd.

Everything is awkward online. I would get used to it know - it will be the new normal.

 

[Dheepa]

Dropping some advice on group assessments:

1. Deliver your presentations professionally and maintain character.

• Not everyone should be a partner. Some members of your group should be senior associates or associates (this will make your presentation far more realistic as clients often want to see the people who will be leading the day to day work as well. If it is a client pitch, there are often other support staff included in these like project managers.
• Align the points each person will be talking about with their character/role. For example, a partner will be more likely to discuss something like the firm's strategy and its USPs, an associate may know more about day to day task management, and a project manager may be more knowledgable about value added services like legal tech
• Reach out to people at the firm who have actually done presentations/pitches like this for clients and ask for advice on how to make your presentation more realistic. Also reach out to trainees that have most likely done the same exercise on their VS for advice on what worked and didn't work for them!

2. Presentation documents

• Use firm templates where you can. Proof read everything.
• If that is not possible for whatever reason (sometimes especially if it is a client pitch these templates are confidential), focus on the content rather than the visuals. While tables, charts etc can be very exciting to look at, your time will be better spent working on the substantive content of your talking points. The flip side to this is if you include a lot of fancy diagrams and are unable to explain them in detail when asked, that's not going to do your group any favours.
• Do your research on everything your including in the slides or handouts. Your assessors will most likely nitpick even the smallest point so don't catch yourself out by including something you're not 100% confident in discussing.

3. Rehearse - make sure you and your entire group know what they are doing.

• This may seem like very obvious advice but, be very proactive about helping your other group members out where necessary. If someone is more timid during the group's discussions reach out to them afterwards and check in to see if they are understand what's been discussed.
• Especially on a VS (as compared to an AC) how well the overall group performs is far more important than how well you as an individual perform. So be the person that helps pull everyone together and make sure everyone is presenting to the same high standard.
• Prepare for follow up questions by questioning everyone in your group on anything and everything they say
• Ensure that people in your group are designated specific questions to answer so for instance, if someone is responsible for talking about the firm’s international strategy, that persons should answer questions related to that topic
• If a member of the team is stuck with a question they have been given, don't jump in too quickly to help. Give them the opportunity to answer first. I'd suggest making a rule that if someone in the group is stuck on a question for more than 10 seconds, then someone else can interject.

Hope that's somewhat useful!

 

[lawyerlondon99]

hi

 

[Anon08]

I've been asked this question a lot recently: how much does the TC conversion interview at the end of the VS matter?

I'll caveat my answer and say that it depends from firm to firm - some firms will have whole ACs after a VS, whilst some will have 5-10 min interviews which feel more like a "hi, did you enjoy yourself, bye"-style chat.

However, for many firms, especially if the VS is long (2 or 3 weeks), the work you do on the VS + how people feel about you throughout the scheme counts the most. On one of my VS schemes, grad rec, when hounded by a schemer, said that, approximately and informally, about 80-85% of your 'mark' comes from your performance over the scheme, whilst 15-20% comes from the conversion interview. Again, disclaimer, this will vary drastically from firm to firm - however, you should be able to identify if the firm you have your VS at puts weight on the end interview (for example, if they make you do an AC...chances are that matters a lot!).

I feel many candidates obsess over that final interview - whilst you shouldn't neglect it, for many firms and their respective schemes, your performance over the VS is equally if not more important. Note, that the final interview can also be substantially different to a 'traditional' interview. For one of my VSs, I had a 10 minute call where we chatted about my degree and my interest in advocacy and that was pretty much it.

I just wanted to put this out there to hopefully allay some worries people have over the final conversion interview; however, remember, that your milage may vary depending on the firm you are a schemer at!

 

[Jessica Booker]

My bit of advice on TC conversion interviews is don’t let them become your everything. I know too many people who haven’t been offered TCs because they spent too much time prepping for their conversion interview, rather than doing work for their vac scheme, and they basically didn’t get their priorities right or balanced.

 

[SRW]

To add to Jessica's point - I completed a winter virtual vac scheme this year and it was clear from my feedback at the end of the scheme that their decision was 90% based on the quality of the work I produced. With the virtual schemes, this is mostly what they have to go on (depending on how their scheme is run of course).

Some people on my scheme were very quiet and didn't attend all the events but were offered a TC, clearly because their work output scored highly. Despite trainees telling us that the tasks didn't matter, they clearly did. Just interesting to note for people who have virtual VSs coming up this year!

 

[LegalLordLox]

These points are all very helpful! Thank you for starting this thread! I do have a question. In a VS both virtual and in the office, how do you know when the it is the right time to finish for the day? Will firms have the expectation of candidates to do ridiculous hours? Or is it that sometimes you will end up chasing people for work to do? But unsure about this. Any advice would be great. Thank you.

 

[Dheepa]

These points are all very helpful! Thank you for starting this thread! I do have a question. In a VS both virtual and in the office, how do you know when the it is the right time to finish for the day? Will firms have the expectation of candidates to do ridiculous hours? Or is it that sometimes you will end up chasing people for work to do? But unsure about this. Any advice would be great. Thank you.

Firms definitely don't want any of their vac scheme students doing ridiculous hours. For an in person VS your supervisors will most likely chase you out at 5.30pm. Unless you are adamant about having some urgent work that needs completing, in which case I know some people who have maybe stayed until about 6.30pm, but beyond that, you will quite literally be chased out. There is slightly more flexibility with a virtual VS (personally on some days I worked well past 5.30 for two of my vacs purely because I needed the additional time to produce good work) but even then I had my supervisor notice I was online at 8pm once and he gave me a very stern call to tell me to log off immediately.

With regards to chasing people up for work to do, if you find yourself with nothing to do, then yes definitely take the initiative to find work. I've given quite a few tips on this above but in summary:

1. Ask your supervisors or trainee buddies first for work. If they don't have anything at the moment (rarely ever the case actually) then reach out to someone whose work you would genuinely be interested in getting involved with
2. If you're really stuck for work, maybe ask if your trainee buddy has any documents or contracts you can review so that way you are keeping yourself occupied while still learning.

Honestly, try not to worry about doing "too little" work and definitely don't compare workloads with other vac schemers (I was very guilty of this and it really unnecessarily stressed me out) . It's a lot better to complete a few tasks to a really high standard than to do too much to a poor standard.

 

[Jessica Booker]

These points are all very helpful! Thank you for starting this thread! I do have a question. In a VS both virtual and in the office, how do you know when the it is the right time to finish for the day? Will firms have the expectation of candidates to do ridiculous hours? Or is it that sometimes you will end up chasing people for work to do? But unsure about this. Any advice would be great. Thank you.

You could find both ends of the spectrum even on the same scheme. I haven’t really heard of vac schemers being expected to stay late, it’s often their own perception that they should that means they do stay in the office late. Some also stay late for their own purposes (eg prepping for interviews).

More times than not though you will find a time where you are trying to find work, another time when your feeling you’ll have to stay later to get your work done. That’s ultimately life as a trainee too though - it’s a careful balance of ensuring you take on enough work without under delivering.

If you do find yourself struggling for work, then you have to be proactive enough to make the most of other opportunities - so it’s good prep on a certain level for life as a trainee anyway.

 

[ChuPnl]

Hi,

First of all, thank you for starting this thread. It's full of very resourceful content and posts

I’m not sure where to post this but I feel like it relates to this thread so I’m hoping someone will have an answer.

I did an AC with a firm a while ago and connected with one of their current trainee at the time, who told me I could message him in case I had any questions in the future.

I thanked them saying I would reach out in case I did have any.
A month later, turns out I do have a question about one of the firm’s department.
I wanted to gain an insight on this department so I sent out a little message to the trainee telling them why I wanted to gain that specific insight and politely asking whether they ever came into contact with this department during their TC and could answer a few questions, or whether they could suggest me to contact someone from the department who could potentially give me an insight.

I tried to word it as nicely as possible (I’m a naturally very shy person who doesn’t like bothering people or abusing their time/generosity).
However, turns out they ghosted me…
And I now have a VS coming up with this firm…

I now worry that this awkward interaction may impact my VS in a bad way, knowing that some firms take their trainees’ opinion of candidates into account for the TC selection.
I honestly didn’t want to annoy them or make them feel awkward, and I really regret messaging them now…

I know this isn’t a really closed question, but rather a ‘any advice’ type of post, so I’d really appreciate it if anyone had an opinion/advice on this situation and how I could potentially improve things.

Thank you in advance.

 

[lilli]

Hi all! For my week-long virtual vac scheme in summer, I've just found out we don't have an interview at the end. The scheme consists of activities like a mock trial, group presentation, commercial awareness quiz, workshops.

Bit confused how they would decide who gets the TC at the end, especially as it doesn't seem like we will be doing actual work. I think around half of the vac schemers get a TC offer - are they likely to base this on our AC scores and/or on these activities during the week? It's my first vac scheme so I am a bit clueless how it all works anyway!

 

[Jessica Booker]

Hi,

First of all, thank you for starting this thread. It's full of very resourceful content and posts

I’m not sure where to post this but I feel like it relates to this thread so I’m hoping someone will have an answer.

I did an AC with a firm a while ago and connected with one of their current trainee at the time, who told me I could message him in case I had any questions in the future.

I thanked them saying I would reach out in case I did have any.
A month later, turns out I do have a question about one of the firm’s department.
I wanted to gain an insight on this department so I sent out a little message to the trainee telling them why I wanted to gain that specific insight and politely asking whether they ever came into contact with this department during their TC and could answer a few questions, or whether they could suggest me to contact someone from the department who could potentially give me an insight.

I tried to word it as nicely as possible (I’m a naturally very shy person who doesn’t like bothering people or abusing their time/generosity).
However, turns out they ghosted me…
And I now have a VS coming up with this firm…

I now worry that this awkward interaction may impact my VS in a bad way, knowing that some firms take their trainees’ opinion of candidates into account for the TC selection.
I honestly didn’t want to annoy them or make them feel awkward, and I really regret messaging them now…

I know this isn’t a really closed question, but rather a ‘any advice’ type of post, so I’d really appreciate it if anyone had an opinion/advice on this situation and how I could potentially improve things.

Thank you in advance.

The trainee could just be busy or have missed the message. To be frank it probably looks like I ghost lots of people because I haven’t always got capacity to reply to everything - the same will go for trainees.

I personally wouldn’t worry about it. I don’t think the trainee will have perceived your communication as you think, and I don’t think it will even register on any feedback for your vacation scheme/TC conversion process.

 

[ChuPnl]

The trainee could just be busy or have missed the message. To be frank it probably looks like I ghost lots of people because I haven’t always got capacity to reply to everything - the same will go for trainees.

I personally wouldn’t worry about it. I don’t think the trainee will have perceived your communication as you think, and I don’t think it will even register on any feedback for your vacation scheme/TC conversion process.

Thank you for replying so quickly!

You are probably right, I might be overthinking it a little.
Should I just leave it this way then? And would it be ok to message them later on about something else?