Picking Between Training Contracts

[Jane101]

Hi everyone!

This is my first post here so apologies if I've put it in the wrong place. I’m currently weighing offers from both Ashurst and Baker McKenzie ('BM'), and I’d really appreciate any insight/advice from those who have experience with either (or both!) firms. I know I’m incredibly lucky to be in this position and I'm grateful to even have a choice, but now I'm here I'm struggling to decide.

I've put together a rough comparison list, and would be extremely appreciative if anyone could weigh in on any of these areas:

Type and Calibre of Work

My understanding of BM is that its work is mostly multi-jurisdictional, being a global firm operating in 46 countries. Meanwhile, my understanding of Ashurst is that it's much more UK-focused, sitting on the UK government's legal panel for example. Is there a perception that one or the other is more 'prestigious' (i.e. would I be wrong to think that Ashurst would be better known in London, but BM better known globally? And would this have any impact on future career progression i.e. lateralling down the line?).

Training

Both firms take between 30-40 trainees. BM requires you take a transactional and contentious seat, whilst Ashurst requires a transactional seat and a seat in Banking & Finance/Capital Markets. Does anyone have any further insights into the training I could expect at these firms? I don’t know where I want to qualify yet, so specific strength in practice areas is unlikely to hugely impact my decision.

Work/Life Balance

BM has 25 days annual leave and target hours of 1700, whilst Ashurst has 27 days leave and a target of 1600. However, I've heard anecdotally that 'silver circle' firms essentially work 'magic circle' hours, so I'm struggling to compare the two here.

Culture

I've met people from both firms, and they all seem lovely! This makes it hard to differentiate here.

Career Progression

Does anyone have any insight into what career progression looks like at these firms? As the larger firm BM obviously has more partners/senior associates, but I'd imagine you'd be competing with a greater pool of people for promotions?

International Secondments

I'd assume that BM has far greater opportunity for international secondments, given it has 77 offices? Saying that, I've remember reading somewhere that 1/3 of Ashurst trainees go on international secondment.

Remuneration

BM offers an NQ salary of £140,000, and Ashurst £125,000. I was curious if anyone knew what further salary progression/bonuses look like at either of the firms? If you start on a higher NQ salary, I'd imagine this is reflected in associate pay too? I've heard salary bunching is quite common at the associate level, so wanted to check for this.

Do let me know if i've missed any key points, and thanks in advance for any insights — looking forward to hearing what you all think!

 

[Andrei Radu]

Hi everyone!

This is my first post here so apologies if I've put it in the wrong place. I’m currently weighing offers from both Ashurst and Baker McKenzie ('BM'), and I’d really appreciate any insight/advice from those who have experience with either (or both!) firms. I know I’m incredibly lucky to be in this position and I'm grateful to even have a choice, but now I'm here I'm struggling to decide.

I've put together a rough comparison list, and would be extremely appreciative if anyone could weigh in on any of these areas:

Type and Calibre of Work

My understanding of BM is that its work is mostly multi-jurisdictional, being a global firm operating in 46 countries. Meanwhile, my understanding of Ashurst is that it's much more UK-focused, sitting on the UK government's legal panel for example. Is there a perception that one or the other is more 'prestigious' (i.e. would I be wrong to think that Ashurst would be better known in London, but BM better known globally? And would this have any impact on future career progression i.e. lateralling down the line?).

Training

Both firms take between 30-40 trainees. BM requires you take a transactional and contentious seat, whilst Ashurst requires a transactional seat and a seat in Banking & Finance/Capital Markets. Does anyone have any further insights into the training I could expect at these firms? I don’t know where I want to qualify yet, so specific strength in practice areas is unlikely to hugely impact my decision.

Work/Life Balance

BM has 25 days annual leave and target hours of 1700, whilst Ashurst has 27 days leave and a target of 1600. However, I've heard anecdotally that 'silver circle' firms essentially work 'magic circle' hours, so I'm struggling to compare the two here.

Culture

I've met people from both firms, and they all seem lovely! This makes it hard to differentiate here.

Career Progression

Does anyone have any insight into what career progression looks like at these firms? As the larger firm BM obviously has more partners/senior associates, but I'd imagine you'd be competing with a greater pool of people for promotions?

International Secondments

I'd assume that BM has far greater opportunity for international secondments, given it has 77 offices? Saying that, I've remember reading somewhere that 1/3 of Ashurst trainees go on international secondment.

Remuneration

BM offers an NQ salary of £140,000, and Ashurst £125,000. I was curious if anyone knew what further salary progression/bonuses look like at either of the firms? If you start on a higher NQ salary, I'd imagine this is reflected in associate pay too? I've heard salary bunching is quite common at the associate level, so wanted to check for this.

Do let me know if i've missed any key points, and thanks in advance for any insights — looking forward to hearing what you all think!

Hi @Jane101 and first of all huge congrats on your offers, this is an amazing achievement. Both Baker McKenzie and Ashurst are great firms and I do not think you can go wrong with either. Having been in a similar position to you last cycle, my advice would thus be to take it seriously but also try not to stress too much about the decision.

That said, I will give you my thoughts on some of the points of comparison you have mentioned:

• General reputation and type of work: I think you would be right to assume Ashurst is the more prestigious name in London and Baker McKenzie is the more well-known firm globally. Baker McKenzie is also more know for being a very generalist firm, whereas Ashurst, while still full service, has a few areas of focus, like finance, real estate, and energy/projects. For purposes of lateraling Ashurst probably has the slightly better reputation for quality of training, but the impact will not be major. What will likely matter more is the comparative reputation of the particular practice area you qualify in,
• International secondments: while the number of international offices matters, firm policy is sometimes more determinative of your chances of getting one. Based on Legal Cheek statistics your odds would be slightly better at Ashurst (30% vs 24% at Baker Mckenzie did a secondment).
• W/L balance: generally hours will probably be somewhat better than at MC/US firms, but beyond that it will likely depend more on practice area selection rather than firm selection.
• Renumeration: Salary brunching has indeed been quite common ever since the US firms have started the pay wars - I would assume both Baker and Ashurst to be affected by it. Since their starting point is higher, I expect the rest of Baker's salary scale to be above Ashurst's as well.

 

[Jane101]

Hi @Jane101 and first of all huge congrats on your offers, this is an amazing achievement. Both Baker McKenzie and Ashurst are great firms and I do not think you can go wrong with either. Having been in a similar position to you last cycle, my advice would thus be to take it seriously but also try not to stress too much about the decision.

That said, I will give you my thoughts on some of the points of comparison you have mentioned:

• General reputation and type of work: I think you would be right to assume Ashurst is the more prestigious name in London and Baker McKenzie is the more well-known firm globally. Baker McKenzie is also more know for being a very generalist firm, whereas Ashurst, while still full service, has a few areas of focus, like finance, real estate, and energy/projects. For purposes of lateraling Ashurst probably has the slightly better reputation for quality of training, but the impact will not be major. What will likely matter more is the comparative reputation of the particular practice area you qualify in,
• International secondments: while the number of international offices matters, firm policy is sometimes more determinative of your chances of getting one. Based on Legal Cheek statistics your odds would be slightly better at Ashurst (30% vs 24% at Baker Mckenzie did a secondment).
• W/L balance: generally hours will probably be somewhat better than at MC/US firms, but beyond that it will likely depend more on practice area selection rather than firm selection.
• Renumeration: Salary brunching has indeed been quite common ever since the US firms have started the pay wars - I would assume both Baker and Ashurst to be affected by it. Since their starting point is higher, I expect the rest of Baker's salary scale to be above Ashurst's as well.

Hi @Andrei Radu, thank you for the detailed response! It’s reassuring to hear that you were in a similar position, and I appreciate the reminder not to overthink things too much - I'll admit it does feels like a life-defining decision at times! 😅

Seeing as I'm unsure about where I'd like to qualify yet, it seems like BM would likely be the better fit given their more generalist position. I wondered if you knew of/could tag anyone who's worked at either Ashurst or BM so they could weigh in on the culture/career progression points?

Thanks again!

 

[Andrei Radu]

Hi @Andrei Radu, thank you for the detailed response! It’s reassuring to hear that you were in a similar position, and I appreciate the reminder not to overthink things too much - I'll admit it does feels like a life-defining decision at times! 😅

Seeing as I'm unsure about where I'd like to qualify yet, it seems like BM would likely be the better fit given their more generalist position. I wondered if you knew of/could tag anyone who's worked at either Ashurst or BM so they could weigh in on the culture/career progression points?

Thanks again!

The only people I know at those firms are very junior (future trainees or first year trainees) so I doubt they could help you much. My advice would be to just reach out to a middle/senior associate at the firm and try to get on a short call with them - they will know a lot more about this. If you have completed VSs with the firms this should be relatively straightforward, as you can just speak with the people you have build most rapport with.

If not, I would try cold texting as many of them as possible (particularly alumni of the same university or people you have other connecting factors with). If you explain you would like to ask a few quick questions to enable you to make a more informed decision vis a vis TC offers, I think you have a good chance to find someone who will take you up on it.

 

[Jessica Booker]

Hi @Andrei Radu, thank you for the detailed response! It’s reassuring to hear that you were in a similar position, and I appreciate the reminder not to overthink things too much - I'll admit it does feels like a life-defining decision at times! 😅

Seeing as I'm unsure about where I'd like to qualify yet, it seems like BM would likely be the better fit given their more generalist position. I wondered if you knew of/could tag anyone who's worked at either Ashurst or BM so they could weigh in on the culture/career progression points?

Thanks again!

In addition to @Andrei Radu's great advice, I would also recommend speaking to the Graduate Recruitment team to see if they could arrange for you to come back to the firm for a few hours to meet people to get these type of questions answered. It is quite common when people are unsure of what offer to accept that firms can arrange for you to meet with people (whether in person or virtually) to get these type of questions answered.