Living Comfortably as a Trainee/NQ Solicitor

[Donzi]

Hi all,

As TC/VS applications start opening, I would like to be more considerate of the factors that I take into account when applying.

One of the main factors is pay. I understand that with most firms, higher pay equals less free time.

I am quite a family orientated person and enjoy spending time socialising with friends. Therefore, having free time is important to me and I consider it to be more important than having a huge salary.

With the above in mind, what do you consider is a 'comfortable' salary for someone living in London who wants to be able to buy a flat, have a decent car, go on holiday and raise a family?

Also, if I were to train at a firm such as Pinsent Masons (or any other similar tier firm) would I be able to move up the ladder upon qualification e.g. magic/silver circle? Or, would my options be limited?

Apologies for the long thread, but I really want to take this application cycle serious and give it my all this time.

Thank you to everyone taking the time to read and respond to this!

 

[D]

You can do some research, based off of your own criteria. Here's my quick knock-up:

Trainee Salary at PM: £41,000 in London.
The typical upper range of mortgage, based on typical bank's lending criteria - £133,300 - £185,000
My very brief Rightmove search found: Studio Flat in Zone 5.

NQ Salary at PM: £70,000 in London
The typical upper range of mortgage, based on typical bank's lending criteria - £227,500 - £315,000
My very brief Rightmove search found: 2 Bedroom Flat in Zone 5, 1 Bedroom Flat in Zone 1.

At PM, according to surveys, your average day is 0900 - 1900.
The Zone 5 commute looks around 50mins so let's say you leave at 0745 every day and return at 2030 to allow for getting to and from the station from your address. The Zone 2 commute is probably 30 mins.

From that, make of it what you will.

Moving from PM to MC/SC firms, I'm of course less aversed with.

 

[amb98]

Do trainees tend to buy or rent in London?

 

[Mia97]

Do trainees tend to buy or rent in London?

Rent for sure ahah. You are looking at 80k to £250k deposit for zone 3-4. more zone 1-2.

 

[Jessica Booker]

Do trainees tend to buy or rent in London?

Tend to rent and house share with other trainees/recent graduates

 

[Jessica Booker]

The main issue with buying properties is the deposit needed for it.

At the moment, with interest rates where they are it is a lot cheaper to pay a mortgage each month than it is to rent the same property. For instance, my monthly mortgage payment is about 60% of what I would be paying if I was renting my place

Property, particularly in London is going to drop though (both rent and property prices). I think this will make it much more accessible to young people trying to get on the property ladder. To be eligible for affordable housing in London, you can be earning up to £90k too - so many single income NQs would still be eligible for such support to get on the housing ladder.

I managed it on a single income and earning much less than a NQ (via affordable housing). I didn’t have any student debt though and recognise that is a very different situation to those who have incurred debt from high fees + GDL/LPC costs.

 

[Jessica Booker]

Moving from a firm like PM to a MC/US firm won’t be impossible but won’t be common.

It is much more likely to be the other way around.

 

[Adam Gilchrist]

Moving from a firm like PM to a MC/US firm won’t be impossible but won’t be common.

It is much more likely to be the other way around.

There also seems to be more switching between MC & US firms at about 2 years PQE, going by a quick linkedin check of my connections

 

[Adam Gilchrist]

The other thing to remember about living in London is that especially as a trainee at certain firms, your hours may be extremely late into the night, so even if you wanted to live in a more distant suburb, that may not be an option because of how difficult it is getting a train at 1AM.

Some trainees lucky enough to have grown up in London anyway just stay living with their parents for the entirety of the TC, which means they can save up more towards a deposit.

 

[D]

The other thing to remember about living in London is that especially as a trainee at certain firms, your hours may be extremely late into the night, so even if you wanted to live in a more distant suburb, that may not be an option because of how difficult it is getting a train at 1AM.

Some trainees lucky enough to have grown up in London anyway just stay living with their parents for the entirety of the TC, which means they can save up more towards a deposit.

This is the key thing to consider - While firms often pay taxi's to get you home if it's a late one, you don't want to be messing about with a long commute at silly o'clock when you need to be back in the office in the morning. I used to have drive 1hr to work each way, and I can tell you about some of the absolutely hair-raising moments I've had driving home after 4 x 15 hour shifts in a row.

I think a good scenario is living within walking distance to work when you are a trainee/NQ. Once you are settled in to a routine and understand the requirements of work and what your supervisor expects, you can start to think about moving further away etc. That's my take.

 

[Jessica Booker]

There also seems to be more switching between MC & US firms at about 2 years PQE, going by a quick linkedin check of my connections

Agreed - a fair number of people drop out of the profession or choose to move into regions at around 2-3 years PQE. Things like maternity/paternity leaves also start to kick in too, so movement generally starts to happen around then. 2-3 years PQE can be a much cheaper resource than 4-5. You then start to see people move 5-6 years PQE if they aren’t getting promoted or if they know they aren’t on the promotion track, and then the same around 9 years PQE if people realise they aren’t on the partner track.

 

[Jessica Booker]

This is the key thing to consider - While firms often pay taxi's to get you home if it's a late one, you don't want to be messing about with a long commute at silly o'clock when you need to be back in the office in the morning. I used to have drive 1hr to work each way, and I can tell you about some of the absolutely hair-raising moments I've had driving home after 4 x 15 hour shifts in a row.

I think a good scenario is living within walking distance to work when you are a trainee/NQ. Once you are settled in to a routine and understand the requirements of work and what your supervisor expects, you can start to think about moving further away etc. That's my take.

Anywhere you can commute within 45 minutes each way door to door and there are no evening restrictions on your travel, is generally reasonable I think.

I did very long hours and most days didn’t leave the office until gone 10.00pm and lived in zone 2 - door to door my journey was around 35-40 mins and it was generally very easy. I didn’t always have the luxury of taxis home either! I think with less people using public transport too, it’s going to become much more pleasant to travel rather than walk. I know people who live in Clapham are now loving the fact they don’t have to cram onto the Northern Line and that those coming into Waterloo don’t have to queue for the Waterloo and City line like they used to. People are generally finding their journeys far more comfortable and less time consuming due to lack of queuing.

 

[Velikilawyer123]

Moving from a firm like PM to a MC/US firm won’t be impossible but won’t be common.

It is much more likely to be the other way around.

Jessica, so what would be the factors to consider in allowing an NQ to move from mid-market firms like Pinsents, Stephenson Harwood, Addleshaw Goddard, etc. to an MC / US firm? Is it enough to have done seats / qualified into a practice area which the MC / US firm is good at (and which you're applying for)? Do client / international secondments play a part?

 

[Jessica Booker]

Jessica, so what would be the factors to consider in allowing an NQ to move from mid-market firms like Pinsents, Stephenson Harwood, Addleshaw Goddard, etc. to an MC / US firm? Is it enough to have done seats / qualified into a practice area which the MC / US firm is good at (and which you're applying for)? Do client / international secondments play a part?

no - that isn’t enough unfortunately.

You need to be working on matters of the same complexity, with similar clients. Your CV needs to demonstrate the same evidence as someone who is qualifying out of a MC or US firm - otherwise it just isn’t as competitive as the other people in the market you will be up against for these NQ roles.

A client secondment might play a part if that client is seen as high profile, or a target of the firm you are trying to work for, or in a high growth sector where fewer people have experience. Less so with the international secondments, unless you have some stellar experience there (which for some secondment locations will just not be possible).