I honestly have no idea what to think after this article (especially the comments section)

[Lastseasonwonder]

So I am going about my usual weekday routine at university - wake up, brush my teeth blah blah blah - then I read this article:

https://www.legalcheek.com/2021/10/...g-hours-of-big-paying-us-law-firms-in-london/

What concerns me is not the article itself, but the comments section. I know from the statistics out there that working at a US law firm is hard work. There is no doubt about that! However, some of the comments from those who have suggested they are a trainee or associate at a US law firm overwhelms me quite a bit, and I have applied to some US firms already this cycle and intend to apply to some more. For example:

'Weil PE Associate: No one in my team has finished work before midnight for over a year now…'

OR

'Actual US Trainee: Count yourself lucky. The article is very accurate from my perspective. I just did a transactional seat in a US firm – was glued to my desk 14-16 hours a day and barely had time to eat a banana, let alone dinner at 8pm. Had it not been for a housemate who cooked for me it would have been Deliveroo at my desk every night for 6 months. Being able to walk away from my desk before midnight was considered a luxury, often I had associates call me with new assignments past midnight or had team briefings at 11pm.'​

This, therefore, leaves me with some questions:

(1) Are the people writing these comments actually working at a US law firm? I would love to hear the perspective of someone from the TCLA community who is working at a US law firm (trainee or associate) @Jaysen @Jessica Booker is there anyone I can speak to for an honest perspective?

(2) Is this increase in working hours simply due to WFH and the influx of PE & M&A deal making (hence increase in support finance work too, such as leveraged finance)? Basically, was it always that bad (pre-covid)?

Don't get me wrong, I want to work hard and strive for success. However, having no time for dinner - I mean that is just simply ludicrous. Also, this is just from my perspective now (i.e. no relationship/family). I am therefore left wondering if my drive for working at such law firms solely stems from (1) the salary; and (2) let's face it - the toxic LLB culture.

What does everyone think?

 

[Jessica Booker]

So I am going about my usual weekday routine at university - wake up, brush my teeth blah blah blah - then I read this article:

https://www.legalcheek.com/2021/10/...g-hours-of-big-paying-us-law-firms-in-london/

What concerns me is not the article itself, but the comments section. I know from the statistics out there that working at a US law firm is hard work. There is no doubt about that! However, some of the comments from those who have suggested they are a trainee or associate at a US law firm overwhelms me quite a bit, and I have applied to some US firms already this cycle and intend to apply to some more. For example:

'Weil PE Associate: No one in my team has finished work before midnight for over a year now…'

OR

'Actual US Trainee: Count yourself lucky. The article is very accurate from my perspective. I just did a transactional seat in a US firm – was glued to my desk 14-16 hours a day and barely had time to eat a banana, let alone dinner at 8pm. Had it not been for a housemate who cooked for me it would have been Deliveroo at my desk every night for 6 months. Being able to walk away from my desk before midnight was considered a luxury, often I had associates call me with new assignments past midnight or had team briefings at 11pm.'​

This, therefore, leaves me with some questions:

(1) Are the people writing these comments actually working at a US law firm? I would love to hear the perspective of someone from the TCLA community who is working at a US law firm (trainee or associate) @Jaysen @Jessica Booker is there anyone I can speak to for an honest perspective?

(2) Is this increase in working hours simply due to WFH and the influx of PE & M&A deal making (hence increase in support finance work too, such as leveraged finance)? Basically, was it always that bad (pre-covid)?

Don't get me wrong, I want to work hard and strive for success. However, having no time for dinner - I mean that is just simply ludicrous. Also, this is just from my perspective now as well (i.e. no relationship/family). I am therefore left wondering if my drive for working at such law firms solely stems from (1) the salary; and (2) let's face it - the toxic LLB culture.

What does everyone think?

1) I suspect some comments are from people who say they are, and others who like to pretend to be what they aren’t. Even if there aren’t some people on TCLA who can help, maybe look for alumni from your university now working in US firms and ask for their opinion via LinkedIn - at least that way you definitely know who you are speaking to and the reliability of what they say is a little more certain.

2) Probably a bit of both but it has always been bad, even in times of “quieter” periods and before Covid.

3) The “competitive” culture in high performing students is part of the problem of why people think working for US/MC firms is the be all and end all. It sounds patronising, but ultimately people seek a lot of personal validation by being able to say they are working in a certain type of role with a high profile organisation. They want to be associated with the prestige and see that as success in life. Many people realise it isn’t worth it in time and especially if your priorities in life change - but that often comes with age.

I wasn’t even a lawyer, and yet it took me 9 years to work out I never wanted to work within a law firm again and that working in the legal sector, although had got me many things in life (like it helped me buy my first flat), I lost a lot of my “prime” to being tired and stressed. Fortunately I loved my job enough to keep me ticking over, but the reality is for many lawyers they also work out the job isn’t what they want and they are working their backsides off to just get through a day. But the money and prestige makes them reluctant to walk away. However many do walk away to either in house roles or different careers because it isn’t what they want and the crazy pay never really compensates for that.

 

[Lastseasonwonder]

1) I suspect some comments are from people who say they are, and others who like to pretend to be what they aren’t. Even if there aren’t some people on TCLA who can help, maybe look for alumni from your university now working in US firms and ask for their opinion via LinkedIn - at least that way you definitely know who you are speaking to and the reliability of what they say is a little more certain.

2) Probably a bit of both but it has always been bad, even in times of “quieter” periods and before Covid.

3) The “competitive” culture in high performing students is part of the problem of why people think working for US/MC firms is the be all and end all. It sounds patronising, but ultimately people seek a lot of personal validation by being able to say they are working in a certain type of role with a high profile organisation. They want to be associated with the prestige and see that as success in life. Many people realise it isn’t worth it in time and especially if your priorities in life change - but that often comes with age.

I wasn’t even a lawyer, and yet it took me 9 years to work out I never wanted to work within a law firm again and that working in the legal sector, although had got me many things in life (like it helped me buy my first flat), I lost a lot of my “prime” to being tired and stressed. Fortunately I loved my job enough to keep me ticking over, but the reality is for many lawyers they also work out the job isn’t what they want and they are working their backsides off to just get through a day. But the money and prestige makes them reluctant to walk away. However many do walk away to either in house roles or different careers because it isn’t what they want and the crazy pay never really compensates for that.

Thanks for your perspective, @Jessica Booker.

'the reality is for many lawyers they also work out the job isn’t what they want and they are working their backsides off to just get through a day.'

The above statement sums up really well what goes on in some of these firms. I remember recently watching a YouTube video of an ex-banker in NYC talking about leaving his job because all he was doing, from his outlook, was simply churning through the hours to finish the day. This left me contemplating the following question: why do we work? For some, it is to make ends meet, and in this situation I can understand why someone has to work 12-14 hours a day (e.g. single mother with multiple kids being the backbone of the family). But, what is it at a US firm that truly makes the experience different from other equally prestigious UK firms (i.e. MC; SC)? When I speak to older people heading into or already in the marriage/relationship phase of life, they tell me I wish I had more time to do the simple and basic things in life that truly build for a fulfilling and healthy living (e.g. watching son/daughter in a Sunday league football game).

It is very interesting this debate, and so in the midst of the 2021/2022 application cycle, I shall leave the following questions for those out there wondering the same thing: what impact am I having in this world? Am I going to leave this place in a better state than when I entered it?

 

[Jessica Booker]

Thanks for your perspective, @Jessica Booker.

'the reality is for many lawyers they also work out the job isn’t what they want and they are working their backsides off to just get through a day.'

The above statement sums up really well what goes on in some of these firms. I remember recently watching a YouTube video of an ex-banker in NYC talking about leaving his job because all he was doing, from his outlook, was simply churning through the hours to finish the day. This left me contemplating the following question: why do we work? For some, it is to make ends meet, and in this situation I can understand why someone has to work 12-14 hours a day (e.g. single mother with multiple kids being the backbone of the family). But, what is it at a US firm that truly makes the experience different from other equally prestigious UK firms (i.e. MC; SC)? When I speak to older people heading into or already in the marriage/relationship phase of life, they tell me I wish I had more time to do the simple and basic things in life that truly build for a fulfilling and healthy living (e.g. watching son/daughter in a Sunday league football game).

It is very interesting this debate, and so in the midst of the 2021/2022 application cycle, I shall leave the following questions for those out there wondering the same thing: what impact am I having in this world? Am I going to leave this place in a better state than when I entered it?

At the same time, there are people who thrive off both the environment and the work. I have spoken to enough lawyers who could almost convince me it would be a great career path to take because they are clearly very interested and passionate about the work they do. They don't mind the sacrifices elsewhere as actually they are very happy/healthy and somehow (I still don't know quite how) manage to balance everything.

US firms will offer certain aspects that non-US firms won't offer. Whether its the type of work (and the regularity of that work), the culture, the salary, the international opportunities etc - there will be differences that may seem marginal, but when added up mean that they will be "better" for one person and "worse" for the next.

 

[Jane Smith]

I am an older lawyer and (years ago) was at a big UK City firm, but not in a department with particularly brutal hours. When you really enjoy work and are more senior it is genuinely not a chore. I still enjoy it. You get into such "flow" of it that you can be engrossed (although obviously not with the duller tasks). However I am old enough now usually to be able to ensure I have enough sleep and choose what I do.

Everyone has to make their own choices but make it an informed choice. If you don't think high pay is worth it if you are never able to book a social event during the week, there remain huge numbers of people who do want that.

I rarely missed school events by the way whereas my school teacher husband had to miss just about all of them. I had the money anda bit more power and control over fixing meetings and he earned much less and had zero ability to take time off in a school day even for a child's carol service.

 

[Romiras]

Working from home has the potential to increase working hours (or at the very least, increase 'bad' working hours), but that's very person-to-person/team dependent. You may be put with a supervisor that enjoys loading their work into the evenings and expects the same of you. You may be in a team that just expects you to be available (as a result of WFH) after 'X' timing. The increased efficiencies also may lead management to assume that WFH = increased productivity and therefore there may be an expectation for you to work 'more' since you don't have commute time. But I would say the primary reason is due to the amount of private capital in the market. This has meant that the private equity industry and general M&A activity are booming. Deal timelines are being compressed in the hunt for good opportunities (competition is fierce). You will often see pre-empting of the bidding process, which means that you will work in even shorter timelines pre-COVID19. This affects the finance and capital markets practice as well. Especially things related to high yield and leveraged finance (for obvious reasons). It'll impact adjacent support departments like Tax and Financial Regulation (their hours aren't too great as well).

US and MC firms, across the board, are dealing with the issues of burnout, people leaving law (or to another competitor) and increased deal flows, which all impacts hours. However, I'd say that MC firms (except for certain departments in certain firms) across the board are generally more "sustainable" hour wise - but only when they've sorted the exodus of people leaving the firm in key transactional and support practices. That said, relative sustainability to a US firm isn't a good metric.

I think when you look at LegalCheek's survey, you may overblow how 'bad' the hours are. Going by the numbers supposed by K&E's start and end times, you'd assume everyone at K&E is working around 3,000 billable hours a year. That's just not the case. I would love to say the number are much 'better', but according to my friends in K&E PE, they still seem pretty bad. Some are averaging 2,500 hours (or around there), but definitely not 3,000 billable hours. Again, there are also types of people who perhaps go too far with saying yes to every deal request and have a hard time balancing their work and social life. The same mentality that Jessica raised above, about how some people are prestige-focused and money-focused, are the very same people who have difficulties "disappointing" supervisors by saying no to work requests. Law is a marathon, and there's no point going into a US firm (or any firm rather) with the strategy of working till you burnout in 2-3 years. You're not making much money if you do that. Most of the money you will make in your life will be in the last 10 years of your career. That number could represent almost 80% of your entire life earnings. These hours also don't extend to other departments like Funds, Tax and Reg where you see a big range (1900 - 2500). They're still bad, but you can have a viable career around the 2,000 mark.

With that said, it was only after I actually started working that I realised that 40 hours a week isn't "easy". It doesn't feel fun. I was surrounded by friends in finance, consulting and law who threw numbers out like 80 to 100 hour work weeks, talking about how that's when things get really "tough", and anything below that is easy to handle. My experience with 80 to 100 hour work weeks sucked, and I can categorically say that if I had to do that for more than 1 month, I would quit on the spot. Basically, it's important to get a realistic understanding of what are "bad" hours for you and your context. It's hard to compare with others. Some people can easily handle an 80 hour work week, whilst others prefer less.

You'll probably get beasted more in transactional seats. More so if you're in a US firm that has many private equity clients. However, you can strike a balance (not everyone is a workaholic psychopath). But you can also choose a firm that provides an inherently better balance too - and that doesn't make you a lesser lawyer. If anything, it may make you a better friend, son or daughter, etc.

 

[LlamaLaw]

Although I'm not a lawyer, I've always found that work life balance varies greatly between teams, companies and individuals. I've worked in (American, albeit not law) companies where there definitely are people or teams that work long into the night. I've never been shy about walking out and heading home at the end of the day, but I know a lot of people particularly early in their careers worry about perception or needing to put in hours. I intentionally avoided MC/US firms when applying because I have plenty of friends and colleagues who can attest to the long hours that, for various reasons, I just can't do.

As Jessica said, particularly early in your career it can feel like having X or Y name on your CV is the be all and end all of things, and people make sacrifices to do that, but ultimately a fulfilling and successful career can look very different between different people. I've always been comfortable presenting my work as a measure of the output, not the input, but there will be plenty of firms where input (i.e. hours) is well and truly part and parcel of life. Some people are very happy with that, but only you can really decide if you do.

In the very large middle ground, there's often more room for defining what that balance looks like in a given job yourself than many people realise.

 

[katesouth21]

Hi there, to add to the useful insights above.. this is my experience:

I am not yet a lawyer, I have a TC and start next year. I finished university a few years ago and have worked in several different firms as a paralegal and legal secretary whilst waiting for my TC start date. My experiences and observations have definitely made me question my career in law, probably to the point where if I went back I would choose a different path. Particularly because as a secretary I have worked very closely with several partners, and see what they actually do.

I think it is important to look at the senior people in a law firm (or whatever industry you want to go into) and think about whether you want to do their job. From my experience, the hours do NOT get drastically less once you are a partner or even a senior associate. I think a lot of potential lawyers are under the impression that the hours are awful while you are a trainee, but they get better as you progress and someone else gets 'beasted'. This is not the case.

Sure, some juniors work very long hours. But generally, the associates work more, and the partner does the same if not MORE. The partner is not just doing billable hours but also the matter management - which is basically admin - and financial management e.g. reviewing bills. They have help with this, but it is still a big part of their job role and it is not just taking clients out for lunch as everyone likes to think.

I can't speak for US firms, but at the big international law firm I currently work at, I would say that the corporate lawyers typically do 7-12 hour billable days and this is in normal and 'quiet periods'. Quiet periods are not sitting around twiddling your thumbs but just doing general corporate advice which comes in or being pulled onto something else to help another partner. Busy periods DO entail 80 hour weeks and weekend work.

The actual turn around times on a deal are essentially the same no matter which 'big law' firm you work at. Deal time periods are set by the client or the investment bank as their agent and the lawyers just get whatever is required done. Law firms don't like to push back on their client unless it is entirely out of the realms of possibility. The main reason for the differences between working hours between firms is, therefore, the number of people on a deal. Less people = slightly more of a beating for each individual. This leaner structure is how US firms operate and can afford to pay more, as they are paying less people's salaries.

Another reason US firms hours tend to be worse is they do more Private equity work. PE deal teams tend to have more crazy hours than public M&A due to the fact that they operate on tighter deadlines. You are likely to get shorter deals (maybe a couple of months of exceptional craziness) followed by a quiet week or two, then the cycle repeats.

At the end of the day, for as long as law firms continue to charge their clients according to hours worked, being a lawyer will always entail substantial hours.

I am now questioning my career path for a number of reasons:
> having already worked for a number of years, I have a greater appreciation for the fact that work-life balance is important to me - I want to do hobbies, see friends, relax and enjoy life not simply just live for the weekend (which isn't even guaranteed off)
> as someone commented above, a 40 hour week is tiring anyway - let alone an 80 hour one. Working is very different to studying, it is tiring/taxing in a different way. Even if you are used to studying until 10pm or pulling an all-nighter, it is likely you only do this for short-periods rather than sustain it over several months or don't just take time off when you need it (hard to do this with a job)
> a lot of the actual work I find boring. Reviewing documents in a data room or compiling completion documents is not particularly exciting.
> most of the time it doesn't really feel like you are doing anything particularly 'legal'
> having seen what partners do, day in day out, I don't aspire to be a partner (if I stay in law I would look at moving to work in-house at a company)

Clearly this is just my opinion, and it is not even a fully formed or valid opinion of life as a lawyer seeing as I haven't actually done it yet. Many people do genuinely enjoy it - especially those with a passion for finance/business etc.

However, I would urge anyone to really and truly think about why they want to do it. Not just to help your TC applications, but for your own piece of mind. It is very easy to convince yourself that it is your goal, given the money, the prestige of being a lawyer/ getting a TC (definitely looking back was a factor for me) and that most of your friends are applying.

 

[Jane Smith]

That is a very helpful post for people. (I am an older lawyer), I would have accepted a partnership in a big firm where I worked but they never offered it. However the fact I had those years of experience meant when I set up on my own (and control my hours now and keep all the fees I bill) meant I was able to work for myself and obtain clients because of my reputation. In other words even if people think they might move into working part time or law lecturing or setting up on their own or moving to a smaller firm or going in house the good start in the big firm is wise for many.

I also agree that the move from being a student to a full time worker is a huge change, never mind in very long hours jobs.