Career changer - straight to TC?

[Changes]

HI all,

Have been lurking for a while, great forum. Has been really useful for research.

In short I'm a career changer in my early 30s looking to switch to commercial law at a City firm. I have no formal law work experience and my job precludes me from doing Vacation Schemes (can't do other paid work in my current role). I'm in the process of applying to firms that offer spring workshops and similar in lieu of vacation schemes but is it realistic to expect to get a TC without doing a Vacation Scheme?

I've done a lot of open days over the past couple of years (probably about 15) as well as attending City Law Live, a law careers changers event and currently attend a sports law course at a city firm. I also work with lawyers and as I manage research contracts have done a bit of work drafting simple contracts, specifications, long emails setting out terms in contract when things have gone wrong (the thing that made me realise I love working with words in a legal context rather than my role, which has traditionally been excel as I'm an economist). I've also led an evaluation of our legal work (I work for a public sector regulator), so I feel I know what I'm letting myself in for but I'm not sure if firms would see it that way?

The other issue is my experience is in the public sector (central government and more recently a regulator), which doesn't necessarily align with a career in commercial law (though exploring the career makes me certain this is the route I want to take).

My academics are ok - Solid 2.1 from Russell Group (though a shakey first year, which didn't count towards my final grade) and AAA at A-level from way back when...

Based on the above is it worthwhile applying for TCs without being able to do VSs or do I need to rethink my plans?

 

[Jessica Booker]

Yes, it’s realistic for a lot of firms.

Everything you have said sounds like a good approach.

I’d suggest you be explicit in applications and say you are unable to take up other employment in your current role though. Make it clear why you may not have internships on your application now or in the near future.

 

[Changes]

Yes, it’s realistic for a lot of firms.

Everything you have said sounds like a good approach.

I’d suggest you be explicit in applications and say you are unable to take up other employment in your current role though. Make it clear why you may not have internships on your application now or in the near future.

That’s really useful, thanks!

Which section of the application would you suggest I am explicit about that? The section usually reserved for mitigating circumstances etc.?

Thanks.

 

[Jessica Booker]

That’s really useful, thanks!

Which section of the application would you suggest I am explicit about that? The section usually reserved for mitigating circumstances etc.?

Thanks.

yes a section like that would be appropriate or just a simple sentence in a motivational answer too.

 

[Changes]

yes a section like that would be appropriate or just a simple sentence in a motivational answer too.

Great - thanks for your help.

 

[HorsesForCoursesNeighNeighNeigh]

Hi! I’m in a similar boat to you—I can do maybe one vacation scheme max, but also looking to career change and having to go direct TC.

Anyone else in the same boat?

 

[SLKEJRWOI97]

Hi! I’m in a similar boat to you—I can do maybe one vacation scheme max, but also looking to career change and having to go direct TC.

Anyone else in the same boat?

Same here.

I have annual leave limits too. I've got a total of 25 days (which is 5 weeks) but factor in any holidays, taking time off work to relax, etc then I could be left with maybe 2 weeks.

When I started applying, I asked firms whether they have a quota or a preference on VS v TC routes. I applied for direct TCs with those that said they didn't mind and VSs with the others. I thought I'd keep some AL leave free for that.

So far, I haven't touched my AL for next year but I'll know where I stand with VSs after the recruitment cycle is over (which is fairly soon :/). Hoping to maybe save a week then for TC interviews (if I get that far) and allocate the rest to holidays, etc.

 

[May]

Hi! I can relate as I am unable to do a Vac Scheme under my current job as well. I've brought this up (along with how my grades aren't a high 2:1) with some firms who were understanding and said they do take matters like this into consideration. What you have is definitely a unique selling point and the right firms will definitely be able to see that!

 

[Nicktim]

Hi, I'm a career changer and did one VS while I was working for my previous employer. I was lucky enough to secure a TC from that VS so didn't need time off for any others. My employer was flexible and allowed me to use some unpaid leave for the VS (you get paid a certain amount by the firm for doing the VS so can use that to top up any financial commitments).

I would personally recommend doing a VS if you're career changing as it is a big commitment leaving your current career and going back to law school for the GDL/LPC before starting out at the bottom of the pecking order as a trainee. A VS gives you the opportunity to really test out whether it is the right environment for you and to get to speak to people at the firm to make your own mind up if it is the right move.

I found the firm were really interested in my work experience and it definitely helped in securing a TC at the end of the scheme. Vac schemes are as much about you checking if the firm/career is for you as they are an opportunity for the firm to check your suitability.

 

[HorsesForCoursesNeighNeighNeigh]

Thanks, all v helpful!

I’ve worked directly in the legal sector previously (for around 18 months) and my job now is also indirectly legal related, so I have a good understanding of what is involved on a day-to-day basis. I’d ideally like a direct TC or a single VC leading to TC, it just seems a nightmare scenario for me to have to spend all my AL on VCs...

My work situation is tricky as my contract doesn’t allow me to do paid work for other companies during my employment. I’m applying direct TC where possible, however I need to look into possible ways to square this circle with any VSs. I don’t want my current employer to know I’m applying for a career change, I’m also reasonably senior and it would be quite embarrassing if I then didn’t leave!

 

[amcha595]

In the same boat myself - I’m actually unsure as to whether I can take employment elsewhere for a short period of time as I do work in the city, I’m sure my contract somewhere states I can’t as there may be conflicts of interest. I also am not able to take 2 weeks of leave because my employer doesn’t allow it due to client needs!

Stating that I am unable to do a vac scheme is a good approach, thank you Jessica! Apart from open days, has anyone found any other ways to demonstrate commitment to law? I’m on a few mentoring schemes and have done a few open days but keen to bulk my cv as much as I can?

 

[NickMcK]

In the same boat myself - I’m actually unsure as to whether I can take employment elsewhere for a short period of time as I do work in the city, I’m sure my contract somewhere states I can’t as there may be conflicts of interest. I also am not able to take 2 weeks of leave because my employer doesn’t allow it due to client needs!

Stating that I am unable to do a vac scheme is a good approach, thank you Jessica! Apart from open days, has anyone found any other ways to demonstrate commitment to law? I’m on a few mentoring schemes and have done a few open days but keen to bulk my cv as much as I can?

I was in a similar position and one thing that helped me demonstrate commitment to law was volunteering with one of the legal aid type organisations where you work directly with clients and in the courts. I did this with Support Through Court both in the London Central Family Court and RCJ, so a mix of family and general civil law.

This was quite full on but I used annual leave to do it for about a year, roughly 1-2 days a month. Something similar or delivered remotely due to covid might be more manageable if time is an issue.

This enabled me to show commitment to the profession rather than just enjoying legal-type work in my non-law job. It also gave me a lot of examples of legal work to use in interviews which open-days and mentoring schemes cannot provide.

I also always think it's a good idea to have a chat with a careers advisor / recruiter to help frame your current experience in a way that TC recruiters recognise and appreciate. I was very surprised that the legal-type work I thought recruiters would be interested in was not as interesting to them as some of my non-law work, especially things such as business development and commercial experience.

 

[Nicktim]

In the same boat myself - I’m actually unsure as to whether I can take employment elsewhere for a short period of time as I do work in the city, I’m sure my contract somewhere states I can’t as there may be conflicts of interest. I also am not able to take 2 weeks of leave because my employer doesn’t allow it due to client needs!

Stating that I am unable to do a vac scheme is a good approach, thank you Jessica! Apart from open days, has anyone found any other ways to demonstrate commitment to law? I’m on a few mentoring schemes and have done a few open days but keen to bulk my cv as much as I can?

Depending on the nature of your role/the company you work for it may be worthwhile speaking to your in-house legal team (if you have one). It could be just a chat to understand their role and the path they have taken or could involve a few days of work shadowing. I did this prior to doing my vac scheme and also mentioned it in my TC interview as it demonstrates an interest in the law but is also really beneficial as you can show an appreciation for the needs of the client (which is usually in-house legal teams) that many applicants won't have.

 

[Nicktim]

Another point I would add to this is that prior to applying for TCs I was very worried about the fact I have pretty poor A Levels, went to a non-RG university, hadn't studied Law at any stage and had never been involved in any societies etc. My experience from successfully applying to a Magic Circle firm is that these factors are more to differentiate between the thousands of applications they get from university students with similar academic profiles and career paths. If you apply and have experience leading large teams or managing complex projects then the fact that you did poorly in A Level Psychology or didn't sign up to Law Society 10 years ago is going to be less relevant (Not for all firms, though! Some are very strict on academics). The recruiters will instead be more interested in understanding why you chose the career path you did and why you have decided to change. They will also want to know that you are going to be comfortable starting out as a trainee and taking instructions from associates who may indeed be younger than yourself.

 

[HorsesForCoursesNeighNeighNeigh]

Thanks Nick, your advice is really helpful! And you too Jessica!

I’m applying for TCs/VSs for the first time, really not sure of my chances tbh—I haven’t started the GDL, if I did it would have to be part time and would be difficult to fit with my role. Likewise a VS might be doable but quite likely would not be. Am trying not to be too outing of my identity as I’m in a mid-level role currently in a sector where I don’t want to burn bridges!

I’m hoping I have enough evidence on my CV to substantiate my interest in law and my suitability. I did business development for a year while studying my MA, have 18 months at a legal membership organisation (in a role related to my politics MA, which involved a lot of reports on legal services, speaking at legal conferences, etc) and am currently working as a reasonably senior lobbyist on an area of English law that’s under substantial reform (around 1 year).

Graduated from undergrad in 2017, 2 year part time MA until 2019 while working full time, so this has all been in a fairly compressed timeline and is part of the reason why I’m not jumping to also take on the GDL part time! The idea of just doing the GDL for a year sounds like bliss to me! My grades shouldn’t be an issue (first and distinction, strong unis), and have all the usual public speaking extra currics, etc.

I’m just really not sure if my “why law”/“why me” narrative is going to go down well, and whether not having started the GDL will undermine my application? I could start it part time and would be willing to do so, but would really prefer not to if at all possible. I think I’m going to look for some legal volunteering, see if I can find anything that would sit with my job.

Would appreciate all further thoughts and advice! Are there any big holes with my profile that I can plaster over a bit better?

 

[HorsesForCoursesNeighNeighNeigh]

Another point I would add to this is that prior to applying for TCs I was very worried about the fact I have pretty poor A Levels, went to a non-RG university, hadn't studied Law at any stage and had never been involved in any societies etc. My experience from successfully applying to a Magic Circle firm is that these factors are more to differentiate between the thousands of applications they get from university students with similar academic profiles and career paths. If you apply and have experience leading large teams or managing complex projects then the fact that you did poorly in A Level Psychology or didn't sign up to Law Society 10 years ago is going to be less relevant (Not for all firms, though! Some are very strict on academics). The recruiters will instead be more interested in understanding why you chose the career path you did and why you have decided to change. They will also want to know that you are going to be comfortable starting out as a trainee and taking instructions from associates who may indeed be younger than yourself.

Thanks Nick, that’s really helpful! I’m currently 24 so I think I’ll escape from the younger associates line of questioning at least, although I think I come across a lot older than I am!

I’m finding it quite hard to construct this narrative of why I’m looking to switch now. I’m hoping that politics and law have enough similarity/overlap that it doesn’t seem a radical change? All the areas I have worked in are closely connected to business (business development, rule of law for business/an area of business law, legal reform related to development, focus on economics in my MA) so I’m hoping to construct a narrative there.

The truth in a way almost is that lobbying is a lot of fun, and I have had a good mini-career here, but I don’t see myself wanting to work in the area longer term. I miss working with lawyers, I love working on any legal-related issues, and after speaking to loads of lawyer friends about their work I just want to do it!

I’m thinking disputes and private client are my areas of interest, and am applying to firms with strengths in both. Are there any particular activities I could do to demonstrate interest in these? The legal organisation I worked for for 18 months is very disputes focused, and I hope I can link private client work into my stakeholder work with MPs and ministers?

 

[Nicktim]

Thanks Nick, that’s really helpful! I’m currently 24 so I think I’ll escape from the younger associates line of questioning at least, although I think I come across a lot older than I am!

I’m finding it quite hard to construct this narrative of why I’m looking to switch now. I’m hoping that politics and law have enough similarity/overlap that it doesn’t seem a radical change? All the areas I have worked in are closely connected to business (business development, rule of law for business/an area of business law, legal reform related to development, focus on economics in my MA) so I’m hoping to construct a narrative there.

The truth in a way almost is that lobbying is a lot of fun, and I have had a good mini-career here, but I don’t see myself wanting to work in the area longer term. I miss working with lawyers, I love working on any legal-related issues, and after speaking to loads of lawyer friends about their work I just want to do it!

I’m thinking disputes and private client are my areas of interest, and am applying to firms with strengths in both. Are there any particular activities I could do to demonstrate interest in these? The legal organisation I worked for for 18 months is very disputes focused, and I hope I can link private client work into my stakeholder work with MPs and ministers?

I would just caveat my advice by saying that I applied to a small number of firms and only interviewed at one which I'm joining so my experiences aren't particularly wide. Your profile sounds a lot stronger than mine was when I applied and the sector I was working in was completely different to Law so you probably have a much stronger 'why law' narrative than I had.

I absolutely wouldn't worry about demonstrating a particular interest in any specific areas of law at this stage. That's one of the main reasons they have seat rotations. Saying you applied for a particular firm for their strength in a certain area is a good reason why you applied for that firm but I think the reality is most people end up qualifying into areas they had absolutely no interest in before starting at the firm so I think they may take that with a pinch of salt.

All I would say (without knowing your full circumstances) is that having a conversation with your existing employer about your personal development and seeing how they can help you gain experience is a significant demonstration of a commitment to starting a career in Law and will potentially answer any motivation/commitment concerns a recruiter has about your profile. It may also unlock a lot of doors for you. I had a huge amount of support from my employer by being open and honest with them about my ambitions - they allowed me to do work shadowing with the in-house legal team, they put me in contact with lots of people in the industry to build my network and they have even kept in touch with me in case I choose to go in-house in the distant future! It depends on your employer and your personal circumstances I guess because I fully appreciate many businesses are far less understanding and would see this as a bad thing, but perhaps if you don't find yourself successful in your first applications (very few do!) then it is something you might want to consider for the future.

 

[NickMcK]

Thanks Nick, that’s really helpful! I’m currently 24 so I think I’ll escape from the younger associates line of questioning at least, although I think I come across a lot older than I am!

I’m finding it quite hard to construct this narrative of why I’m looking to switch now. I’m hoping that politics and law have enough similarity/overlap that it doesn’t seem a radical change? All the areas I have worked in are closely connected to business (business development, rule of law for business/an area of business law, legal reform related to development, focus on economics in my MA) so I’m hoping to construct a narrative there.

The truth in a way almost is that lobbying is a lot of fun, and I have had a good mini-career here, but I don’t see myself wanting to work in the area longer term. I miss working with lawyers, I love working on any legal-related issues, and after speaking to loads of lawyer friends about their work I just want to do it!

I’m thinking disputes and private client are my areas of interest, and am applying to firms with strengths in both. Are there any particular activities I could do to demonstrate interest in these? The legal organisation I worked for for 18 months is very disputes focused, and I hope I can link private client work into my stakeholder work with MPs and ministers?

Nick's response on speaking with your employer is really good advice and something that I would echo has really helped me through the process.

From reading your current thoughts I would also suggest thinking about your answers to questions such as 1) What do law firms provide for clients? 2) Why do you want to work in a role that provides that? 3) Not just 'why law', but why 'commercial' law? 4) How do law firms work as a business? 5) Why do you want to be a solicitor in a law firm rather than continue as a lobbyist?

Aside from question 5 which I've tailored to you, all of the other questions are ones I was asked during interviews and you will be scrutinised for knowing that you understand the answers to them. Other candidates might get asked 'why don't you just go and work in a bank?' in a similar way that you should expect to be asked 'why do you want to be a solicitor rather than continue as a lobbyist?'

Finding your answer to 'why law?' and 'why now' is only part of the narrative you need to make clear to recruiters. From my experience your answers to the above questions are more important than the issue of why you are deciding to switch at this particular point in time. To be honest, no one in interviews cared that I was applying later in my career, or was a bit older than the other students they were interviewing that day, but they did care that I was making a genuine decision that was worth their investment in me as a potential trainee. You need to show that you are genuinely committed to the career not just because you like the work or the idea of the work.

Just on private client - I also explored going down that route due to similar work with politicians etc. Definitely attend some open days with firms specialising in private client work to understand what they do. I was surprised to see how much family + tax law it involved compared to the idea of 'stakeholder management' that I had expected it to entail.

You seem to have really good work experience for disputes too - the only thing to consider if you haven't be able to do it already is getting some court time. Ideally this would be through working through problems with clients or attending hearings for cases you've worked on but any experience you can get to see 'the day in the life' of how the courts work is really helpful. It doesn't all have to be very high value commercial work as it can be useful to understand the reasons why the civil, family and criminal courts work differently from each other.

 

[HorsesForCoursesNeighNeighNeigh]

Nick's response on speaking with your employer is really good advice and something that I would echo has really helped me through the process.

From reading your current thoughts I would also suggest thinking about your answers to questions such as 1) What do law firms provide for clients? 2) Why do you want to work in a role that provides that? 3) Not just 'why law', but why 'commercial' law? 4) How do law firms work as a business? 5) Why do you want to be a solicitor in a law firm rather than continue as a lobbyist?

Aside from question 5 which I've tailored to you, all of the other questions are ones I was asked during interviews and you will be scrutinised for knowing that you understand the answers to them. Other candidates might get asked 'why don't you just go and work in a bank?' in a similar way that you should expect to be asked 'why do you want to be a solicitor rather than continue as a lobbyist?'

Finding your answer to 'why law?' and 'why now' is only part of the narrative you need to make clear to recruiters. From my experience your answers to the above questions are more important than the issue of why you are deciding to switch at this particular point in time. To be honest, no one in interviews cared that I was applying later in my career, or was a bit older than the other students they were interviewing that day, but they did care that I was making a genuine decision that was worth their investment in me as a potential trainee. You need to show that you are genuinely committed to the career not just because you like the work or the idea of the work.

Just on private client - I also explored going down that route due to similar work with politicians etc. Definitely attend some open days with firms specialising in private client work to understand what they do. I was surprised to see how much family + tax law it involved compared to the idea of 'stakeholder management' that I had expected it to entail.

You seem to have really good work experience for disputes too - the only thing to consider if you haven't be able to do it already is getting some court time. Ideally this would be through working through problems with clients or attending hearings for cases you've worked on but any experience you can get to see 'the day in the life' of how the courts work is really helpful. It doesn't all have to be very high value commercial work as it can be useful to understand the reasons why the civil, family and criminal courts work differently from each other.

Thanks so much NickMcK, you’ve given me loads to think about! Im finding bouncing things off on here so helpful, and bringing me a lot of clarity around strengths and area to develop.

Unfortunately not in a strong position with my current role to discuss career change, although (staying vague) I am taking on a lot of legal-related projects shortly anyway. I think I’m going to make a big push this year, and if I don’t get anywhere I’ll work on getting extra experience over summer/AL to plug the gaps and reapply, possibly starting GDL part time then too.

Lots of good similarities between lobbying and legal in terms of what you do for clients, strategy, risks vs opportunities, creative solutions etc. Will also bring my BD work in here too. Have been looking on the phrasing of this and will get that reviewed by a lawyer.

Court suggestion is v good and something I hadn’t actually considered—I have attended quite a few mock proceedings (arbitrations, mediations) but not actual court case, and have very little exposure to straight up litigation. I could however talk about seeing the role of counsel in action, and the different pros and cons of different modes of dispute resolution for meeting different client needs? Hadn’t thought of this at all as an area to discuss but could actually be a good path!

I do have a bit of experience around assisting legal drafting and some work on contracts, I hadn’t previously pulled these out but they might actually be helpful?

Great tips on private client, I need to look into some of this more—a few associates have pushed me towards it but I definitely need to get a better understanding of the day to day.

I’m hoping the why interested in “commercial” as an issue shouldn’t be too much of an issue, I’ve been looking into the framing of this but thankfully much of my legal experience was really about law as a business, law as an export, rule of law for investment issues—basically very much focused on the commercial aspects of law. Need to work on evidence for the actual practise of law—my only real evidence here is working with lawyers on legal amendments and some contract work that I unfortunately can’t really talk about in interviews!

Basically a lot here for me to think about, this is so incredibly helpful thank you! I feel like i have at least a couple of strong points to build on, if I can deal with the gaps...

 

[NickMcK]

Thanks so much NickMcK, you’ve given me loads to think about! Im finding bouncing things off on here so helpful, and bringing me a lot of clarity around strengths and area to develop.

Unfortunately not in a strong position with my current role to discuss career change, although (staying vague) I am taking on a lot of legal-related projects shortly anyway. I think I’m going to make a big push this year, and if I don’t get anywhere I’ll work on getting extra experience over summer/AL to plug the gaps and reapply, possibly starting GDL part time then too.

Lots of good similarities between lobbying and legal in terms of what you do for clients, strategy, risks vs opportunities, creative solutions etc. Will also bring my BD work in here too. Have been looking on the phrasing of this and will get that reviewed by a lawyer.

Court suggestion is v good and something I hadn’t actually considered—I have attended quite a few mock proceedings (arbitrations, mediations) but not actual court case, and have very little exposure to straight up litigation. I could however talk about seeing the role of counsel in action, and the different pros and cons of different modes of dispute resolution for meeting different client needs? Hadn’t thought of this at all as an area to discuss but could actually be a good path!

I do have a bit of experience around assisting legal drafting and some work on contracts, I hadn’t previously pulled these out but they might actually be helpful?

Great tips on private client, I need to look into some of this more—a few associates have pushed me towards it but I definitely need to get a better understanding of the day to day.

I’m hoping the why interested in “commercial” as an issue shouldn’t be too much of an issue, I’ve been looking into the framing of this but thankfully much of my legal experience was really about law as a business, law as an export, rule of law for investment issues—basically very much focused on the commercial aspects of law. Need to work on evidence for the actual practise of law—my only real evidence here is working with lawyers on legal amendments and some contract work that I unfortunately can’t really talk about in interviews!

Basically a lot here for me to think about, this is so incredibly helpful thank you! I feel like i have at least a couple of strong points to build on, if I can deal with the gaps...

No problem, it sounds like you have a lot more areas covered than you do gaps so you're on the right track!

The experience you have with different modes of dispute resolution sound really good and it's potentially something that you have unique experience of that traditional law students might lack. You've seen the decision making process in action and have an understanding of why clients may choose each dispute resolution option rather than only having a purely academic perspective of dispute resolution, or one that is mainly focused on court proceedings, that uni students tend to have.

Likewise with your legal draftings and contract work. Depending on the application/interview question, these may better examples to draw on than some of your lobbying work because 1) drafting is the kind of work you would be expected to do as a trainee/associate so showing that you enjoy that work shows you'll enjoy being a lawyer and 2) They are another example of how you understand how a client / non-lawyer takes part in a contract drafting process so when you are a lawyer you can use this when communicating with clients to make sure they understand the process, meet their needs etc.

Good luck with it - feel free to drop me a message if you want to go through how to frame an example or particular piece of work experience. Happy to help as it sounds like we have similar non-law backgrounds!