2020-21 Vacation Scheme Applications Discussion

[Jessica Booker]

Thank you for this. However, Willkie doesn't have any trainees at the moment so vacation schemers will probably have a junior associate mentor. I'm not sure you could be as frank with a junior associate as you could a trainee. Also, whenever you ask anyone about the culture of their firm, they always sing the firm's praises. I can't imagine a situation where someone at the firm will admit that their culture is toxic, or that there are partners to steer away from.

I have had some frank associates and partners in my time tell vac schemers the lows of life in the law firm - partly to my horror and also in slight admiration for them (just seething as I knew it would create more work for me).

I would take what you see in RoF with a pinch of salt though. Some firms pay huge amounts of money to keep their stories out of RoF headlines - others pay huge amounts of money AND manage the relationship by giving them exclusives to “half” the story that is the toned down version.

Just because you don’t see it on RoF doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.

 

[Jessica Booker]

So following your reply. I wanted to ask if you ask a partner this and they decline to answer will that mean the tc is gone and you should receive a rejection. It is just an observation.

No - it wouldn’t be as binary as that.

 

[Daniel Boden]

So following your reply. I wanted to ask if you ask a partner this and they decline to answer will that mean the tc is gone and you should receive a rejection. It is just an observation.

In my experience, absolutely not, no and if it was, it probably isn't the type of place you want to be

 

[Daniel Boden]

It's not something I'd personally look to bring up at interview, but it's something I'd want to know about in advance of accepting any sort of offer there

Yeah not sure if I made this clear but I agree with Jacob and wouldn't ask this at an AC but would more then likely ask it once I was on the vacation scheme and definitely ask it prior to accepting a TC if I was offered one!

 

[Jessica Booker]

Ah I see okay yeah it's a tricky one. Tbf I remember at my Kirkland AC somehow literally asked one of the partners what they would say to the negative press about the firm's perceived aggressive/highly-competitive culture and they got a very reasonable response and appreciated the question so if you were to phrase it delicately, asking a lawyer in a more private/1-1 basis may be an option?

If it were me, I'd probably gently say to my supervisor that I had seen a negative article about the firm in the legal press recently and wondered if he had any comment on it. If he declines to answer or doesn't feel comfortable then I think that probably tells you what you need to know but I would be amazed if that were to count against you and if it did, you probably wouldn't want to work there anyway! Firms are well aware that vac schemes are a two-way process for candidates so I'm sure they'd be expecting some tough questions if they were justified.

Perhaps @Jessica Booker would be able to share her insights from her experience as a recruiter?

There are ways and means of asking a question and getting the same answer. Saying “what do you think about this news story” is much more direct and punchy (aka my style) than saying “what is the firm doing to support the mental health of junior lawyers in these testing times”.

But firms will be expecting tough questions from their vac schemers. Firms will respond in different ways though - some will pull out the PR machine, some will tell you truthfully in the hope that you realise they recognise and are dealing with the issue, and some will tell you the truth and basically tell you to suck it up (albeit politely). This is why it’s important to find a firm that works for you though!

 

[Asil Ahmad]

In my experience, absolutely not, no and if it was, it probably isn't the type of place you want to be

Thank you for this. Yes I agree with you on the 2nd part.

 

[time2work]

Anyone still waiting to hear back from latham post-VI? not sure if they are still giving out AC invites

nope not yet.... by this point it feels like its gna be a pfo

 

[Num]

Hi Num, I've got a VI with Hill Dickinson for the business services coming up next week and wondered if you found any answers to this question?/if you have any advice for me going in. First interview in a while, so a little nervous to say the least!

Hi! Congratulations on the VI 🤞. My interview was very straight forward and blunt (to be brutally honest - it wasn't a conversation nor did they take any questions, so something to look out for - I think a few others experienced the same!) Other than that there were 3 questions, centred around the usual stuff you expect - about the firm, the role itself and a commercial one. Be prepared to tailor it to your stream (I did business stream for reference!) My main tip would be to just be calm and collective in your answers. All the best 😆

 

[Sekani Wraith]

I have had some frank associates and partners in my time tell vac schemers the lows of life in the law firm - partly to my horror and also in slight admiration for them (just seething as I knew it would create more work for me).

I would take what you see in RoF with a pinch of salt though. Some firms pay huge amounts of money to keep their stories out of RoF headlines - others pay huge amounts of money AND manage the relationship by giving them exclusives to “half” the story that is the toned down version.

Just because you don’t see it on RoF doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.

Thank you for this!

 

[bethbristol]

This is why I hate the question. They don’t really understand not only the financial costs but also the opportunity cost of going somewhere.

You could always spin it as where you WOULD go on holiday if you had the luxury of time and money to do it. But I would try to answer it, even if it is day trips in the UK.

Having a bit of a brainstorm about how I would answer this question and I think Jess is right that it essentially wants to know that you are an inquisitive person who embraces culture

again might be difficult for those with caring duties/financial restraints but wonder whether you could talk about school trips/uni trips etc and what you learnt and where you took this? Amongst the activities I undertook at a (middle class predominantly white) school that stand out to me was visiting different religious places of worships, taking part in sessions with a school designed for those with learning disabilities, going to a court and speaking with the charity victim support, and I learnt a LOT more about other cultures and myself than I ever did on an all-inclusive holiday on the beach.

 

[bethbristol]

Thank you for this. However, Willkie doesn't have any trainees at the moment so vacation schemers will probably have a junior associate mentor. I'm not sure you could be as frank with a junior associate as you could a trainee. Also, whenever you ask anyone about the culture of their firm, they always sing the firm's praises. I can't imagine a situation where someone at the firm will admit that their culture is toxic, or that there are partners to steer away from.

I found on my vac scheme that junior associates were really the best people to talk to about the firm. They had been there just that bit longer than trainees, and actually tend to give much more honest answers than the trainees I spoke to, so I wouldn’t worry that you won’t be able to be as frank with a junior associate as a trainee because I definitely did not find that to be the case (half the time they are only a year further on in their career!) obviously the subject should be gently introduced, but I have definitely had people tell me about cultures of firms that didn’t sound like a grad rec promotional speech

 

[Matt_96]

I'm aware, however I don't think its productive to scare people with these news stories.

I disagree with this pretty strongly, actually. I think it's crucially important to know what to expect because you might end up having to work with people like this for two years at all hours of the day and night! Culture doesn't mean much when you're writing an application form but it becomes a very important factor once you're in the game.

I am unlucky to speak from personal experience. I had the misfortune that one of my first ever jobs some years ago was a toxic environment where a senior colleague would actively shout at and belittle me and other team mates who were new to the job, sometimes even in front of clients. It was totally unprofessional but he was sufficiently senior in the pecking order that it was sort of expected by everyone there that this would happen. It was just 'who he was', and because we were young and relatively inexperienced none of us really knew how to deal with it or even who the right person was to approach given that it was an open secret, and even spoken of jokingly by some of the other higher ups. But it definitely had a disruptive impact on our morale and productivity because we became extremely resentful of the idea of working for him. I don't think I would ever have taken the job if I had known what the culture was like, and in my personal view, no amount of US biglaw money will ever be worth reliving that experience again.

However, it is a difficult job market right now and I expect that a lot of us will be lucky to get a single training contract offer. If it happens to be from a firm like Willkie that is going through issues like these, I reckon that on balance, it would probably be better to stick it out, get the training and then move elsewhere. But if you face that choice, and have to spend two years in an environment you know might be toxic, wouldn't you want to be prepared, and to walk into that situation with your eyes open? I know I would.

 

[FeuxFollets20]

Is anyone else still waiting to hear from Simmons & Simmons post-VI/tests?

Submitted mine 2 weeks ago and still waiting!

 

[JayC]

Submitted mine 2 weeks ago and still waiting!

I got an e-mail saying they have already filled all their schemes for 2021

 

[Elle W]

I got an e-mail saying they have already filled all their schemes for 2021

Submitted mine 2 weeks ago and still waiting!

Thanks I did mine in December and haven’t heard anything since and didn’t get that email either! Wondering whether to chase up as it’d be nice to know about the inevitable PFO

 

[LegalNim]

Having a bit of a brainstorm about how I would answer this question and I think Jess is right that it essentially wants to know that you are an inquisitive person who embraces culture

again might be difficult for those with caring duties/financial restraints but wonder whether you could talk about free school trips/uni trips etc and what you learnt and where you took this? Amongst the activities I undertook at a (middle class predominantly white) school that stand out to me was visiting different religious places of worships, taking part in sessions with a school designed for those with learning disabilities, going to a court and speaking with the charity victim support, and I learnt a LOT more about other cultures and myself than I ever did on an all-inclusive holiday on the beach.

I don't mean to be rude (in any way at all ever) but throughout my time at school and university I never went on a free trip anywhere - everything had a price. I'm now a teacher and none of the trips are free. The schools have a pupil premium fund for the very poorest students to attend things that are vital to their learning but that's it.

 

[21wajsz]

Hi guys! Any news for SH summer scheme yet? I applied early January and have received nothing from them!

 

[ab1147]

Hi! I'm currently filling in the application form for Browne Jacobson, and they are asking for the exact dates in which we sat each GCSE/IB exam.. I don't remember all the dates for the exams and don't have them on hand, it will probably take me ages to find it! @Jessica Booker would it be okay to select a random date from that period and list all my exams as that same date? Thanks!

 

[Jessica Booker]

Hi! I'm currently filling in the application form for Browne Jacobson, and they are asking for the exact dates in which we sat each GCSE/IB exam.. I don't remember all the dates for the exams and don't have them on hand, it will probably take me ages to find it! @Jessica Booker would it be okay to select a random date from that period and list all my exams for that date? Thanks!

I wouldn’t go with a random date - I would probably chose the first of the month you sat the exams in. If you can’t work out if it’s June or July (or equivalent), then just choose the latest option (as you wouldn’t get your grades until later).

 

[Sekani Wraith]

I found on my vac scheme that junior associates were really the best people to talk to about the firm. They had been there just that bit longer than trainees, and actually tend to give much more honest answers than the trainees I spoke to, so I wouldn’t worry that you won’t be able to be as frank with a junior associate as a trainee because I definitely did not find that to be the case (half the time they are only a year further on in their career!) obviously the subject should be gently introduced, but I have definitely had people tell me about cultures of firms that didn’t sound like a grad rec promotional speech

This is very helpful, thank you!